How can Muslims be non-radical?

[Sex Panther]

Originally Posted by DerDrache

Given that the very source material of the religion is "radical" (ie. extremely oppressive of women, treats people of unrecognized religious faiths as non-humans, promotes murder of non-Muslims, etc.), why do people convince themselves that they are following Islam by following their significantly altered version? If Allah said "Woman are sexual temptresses who should be covered at nearly all times. Oh, and if they get raped, they should be beaten for being unfaithful to their husband", how can a woman just ignore those vile things, still convince herself that she's properly worshiping that god, and proudly announce her Muslim faith?

Since I know someone will mention Christianity: Christianity's Old Testament was definitely vile, but (correct me if I'm wrong) the New Testament (which replaced the Old) was filled with messages of peace, love, equality, and acceptance.

But I digress: How can someone discard a huge chunk of their religion and still think they are part of it? I'm GLAD that they've discarded all of that bullshit, but my thinking is: If they are going to disobey, that probably means they don't really believe the Koran, in which case, why not find a religion that truly is peaceful and loving and just be done with it? (I think there is some New Testament stuff in Christianity about homosexuality, but since the religion is all about forgiveness and repentance, I can understand why people "discard" things they don't agree with.)

I read the first sentence then stopped. Get fucked. Not following the tiniest details of the koran doesn't make you any less of a muslim. Same with christianity. Not much of the laws and procedures directed by the old testament is followed today.
When I went to Lebanon, my father and I visited a very old sheikh. Besides the typical crap elderly lebanese usually talk about, he said

"There is no such thing as a bad Muslim. You are either a muslim or a non-believer. Or a muslim who isn't as good as he could choose to be."

[Hexadecimal]

Nowhere does the OT state that the punishments are supposed to be carried out at the whim of man. Punishment of death is only to be exercised by direct edict of God: We are not to carry out ANY punishment on others unless explicitly directed to do so by God, for it is his righteousness that hates sin, not ours. In our hearts we love sin and fear righteousness, and have not the merit nor righteousness to carry out the judgment nor execution of Wrath.

Upon the life of Christ, through his crucifixion and sacrifice, taking the entirety of God's wrath against sin upon himself, we are not to judge nor execute punishment anymore whatsoever. We are still to rebuke folly and direct our brothers and sisters in the Lord, but never are we, as sinners ourselves, to exercise a vengeful spirit against other sinners.

[ArmsMerchant]

OP, ANY source material is "radical" by definition. Look the word "radical" up in a good unabridged.

But, IMHO, most adherants of ANY religion are ignorant of most of the finer points of dogma. Sunnis and Shiites are basically having a family feud over some stuff that happened shortly after Mohammed died.

The Sufis are the mystic branch. All the major religions have them, and a darned good thing, too.

[DerDrache]

Originally Posted by Sex Panther

I read the first sentence then stopped. Get fucked. Not following the tiniest details of the koran doesn't make you any less of a muslim. Same with christianity. Not much of the laws and procedures directed by the old testament is followed today.
When I went to Lebanon, my father and I visited a very old sheikh. Besides the typical crap elderly lebanese usually talk about, he said

"There is no such thing as a bad Muslim. You are either a muslim or a non-believer. Or a muslim who isn't as good as he could choose to be."

And how does this change the fact that apostates are supposed to be killed, according to Muslim law?

[Sex Panther]

^^

Interesting fact: The islamic version of hell is split up into multiple levels, the lowest and most terrible of which is reserved for apostates

I can't explain why that is. All abrahamic religions are extremely hard to apply in modern situations if you want to follow it to a T. Its nigh on impossible. That's why people don't do it; If I go to a priest and ask him to forgive my sins, he won't ask me to slaughter a lamb and sprinkle frankincense over it. To expect that of religion in a modern context is unreasonable.

I conclude, in my personal opinion, Islam is no better or worse than other monotheistic religions.

Question, when you say muslim law, do you mean Sharia law? Or is it from the Sunnah? Or is it what Mohammad himself reccomended?
Because there's a difference. Whether it's "Should be killed" or "Must be killed", depends on where in the Koran it says that.

[BrokeProphet]

Originally Posted by DerDrache

And we can get into a long interpretational debate about whether or not Jesus really means that Christians should follow the OT laws (since he does not explicitly say that), but it won't make Islam any less of an explicitly oppressive, belligerent religion.

Perhaps the inquisitors failed to interpret Jesus, AS YOU HAVE.

What makes your interpretation correct?

B/C that interpretation was not correct in the 14th and 15th centuries by damn sight.

Guess how “Kill them all. God will know his own" was made famous. I will give you a hint, is wasn't by teaching the love of the new testament.
-----------

I say again, have the christian fuckheads in THIS country live third world for awhile and see how long it takes before communities of filthy uneducated peasants start burning witches.

[BrokeProphet]

Originally Posted by DerDrache

And how does this change the fact that apostates are supposed to be killed, according to Muslim law?

"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods, do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people."(Deuteronomy 13:6-9)

Christian law...

Shit, that's old testament.

I just hope whoever reads this also reads the bit about "Jesus came to fufill and not destroy the old law", AND interprets it EXACTLY as you have.

That is the problem with basing life and death beliefs off of something that can be interpreted more ways than a horoscope or fortune cookie I suppose.

[DerDrache]

Originally Posted by BrokeProphet

Perhaps the inquisitors failed to interpret Jesus, AS YOU HAVE.

What makes your interpretation correct?

B/C that interpretation was not correct in the 14th and 15th centuries by damn sight.

Guess how “Kill them all. God will know his own" was made famous. I will give you a hint, is wasn't by teaching the love of the new testament.
-----------

I say again, have the christian fuckheads in THIS country live third world for awhile and see how long it takes before communities of filthy uneducated peasants start burning witches.

Very true. Humanity's stupidity and barbarism knows no bounds, and Christianity (particularly OT stuff) has been used as an excuse to do disgusting shit for a long, long time.

So, both Christianity and Islam suck, and I think Islam sucks more.

[PastorSehmish]

Islam is historically a religion of conquest. Whilst not all Islamic people think that way today the fact is self evident many do. Islamic extremism will not be appeased no matter how many concessions are made in a vain attempt to win peace. These extremists will lie and deceive and continue to cause unrest and instability until they have it all. They will never be stopped by weak will and the peace at any cost mentality. They are seeking to cause unrest in many countries including moderate Islamic states and as of this time of writing they are the largest global threat to the well being of millions. They have been empowered by oil money that has flowed from the West and until alternative energy supplies are in use they will continue to have funds to purchase their tools of terror. My prediction is that at a not so far away future point they will commit a final act of outrage. This may result in the death of hundreds of thousands of innocents. I predict at this point the world will unite and say enough is enough. The West will move against Islamic states to finally overcome and subdue them. This conflict will see many innocent Islamic people killed. I predict there will be no united will to resist these extremists, particularly from a weak and divided Europe, until the scale of the outrage is so bad it is agreed it has to be done now or all peoples of the world will be destroyed. I hope I am wrong…

[Sex Panther]

Originally Posted by PastorSehmish

Islam is historically a religion of conquest. Whilst not all Islamic people think that way today the fact is self evident many do. Islamic extremism will not be appeased no matter how many concessions are made in a vain attempt to win peace. These extremists will lie and deceive and continue to cause unrest and instability until they have it all. They will never be stopped by weak will and the peace at any cost mentality. They are seeking to cause unrest in many countries including moderate Islamic states and as of this time of writing they are the largest global threat to the well being of millions. They have been empowered by oil money that has flowed from the West and until alternative energy supplies are in use they will continue to have funds to purchase their tools of terror. My prediction is that at a not so far away future point they will commit a final act of outrage. This may result in the death of hundreds of thousands of innocents. I predict at this point the world will unite and say enough is enough. The West will move against Islamic states to finally overcome and subdue them. This conflict will see many innocent Islamic people killed. I predict there will be no united will to resist these extremists, particularly from a weak and divided Europe, until the scale of the outrage is so bad it is agreed it has to be done now or all peoples of the world will be destroyed. I hope I am wrong…

Don't worry, you're completely wrong