ask a jew

[BrokeProphet]

Originally Posted by lostmyface

up untill the 1940's many jews did not want to go to palestine. they wanted some other more fertile land. judasim, as a religion had taken a new turn, an was no longer as focused on returning to a physical jersualem, to many zion had become a state of mind, not a actual place.

So you assert, a group of people, most of whom practice a religion in which an all powerful being deems them the chosen, a certain patch of Earth as holy, and promises to get them there in divine prophecy, did not want to go to this holy land?

What's more is that they accidently wound up there, despite their desire to go against the wishes of their God, and the prophecy of their cannon?

This is what you are telling me?

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You don't see why someone would find what you are suggesting a little hard to believe? So much that you call me a troll and tell me to stop reading your thread?

Okay, I guess it is just a way fucking out there kind of insinuation, and any rational person would quickly come to a different conclusion.

You do seem to understand that the state of Israel was a mistake though.

[lostmyface]

Originally Posted by BrokeProphet

So you assert, a group of people, most of whom practice a religion in which an all powerful being deems them the chosen, a certain patch of Earth as holy, and promises to get them there in divine prophecy, did not want to go to this holy land?

by the 18th century the jewish religion had taken a massive idealogical turn. an while almost all jews at that time felt they were a chosen people, many no longer viewed israel as a holy land. it had become an idea, not a place. the prophecy had also been reinterpreted. where before it was all about wondering lost in the diaspora until god deemed us ready for a return, now it was about fixing the world around us into a better place, a place worthy of god. a return to israel did not factor in these plans at all.

Originally Posted by BrokeProphet

What's more is that they accidently wound up there, despite their desire to go against the wishes of their God, and the prophecy of their cannon?

not accident, but by chance of historical events. if not for world war one i doubt an israeli state would be here today. i doubt the fanatical jews you see in israel today would be around either if not for the west. it was a need to destabilize the region that led the brits an french to start exporting jews to the middle east. those early settlers were pawns just like the original arab owners of the land. as far as wishes an prophecies go i think i have explained in several other post the reinterpretation of the jewish religion an philosophy over the past four centuries. but i doubt you really read any of my post cause you keep posting the same questions. hence why i called you a troll.

Originally Posted by BrokeProphet

This is what you are telling me?

basically, yes.

Originally Posted by BrokeProphet

You don't see why someone would find what you are suggesting a little hard to believe? So much that you call me a troll and tell me to stop reading your thread?

some one who did not understand that there was a difference between the jews of 3000 years ago an the jews of today. they would definetly have trouble grasping onto what i am saying. also some one who has little to no background in middle eastern history over the past 200 years. they might also have trouble getting what i am saying. but some one as knowlegebal as you? no i am sure you hear me just fine.

i called you a troll because you keep asking the same questions that i feel i have answered in other post.

Originally Posted by BrokeProphet

Okay, I guess it is just a way fucking out there kind of insinuation, and any rational person would quickly come to a different conclusion.

fucking out there kind of insinuation, what does that even mean? if you think i am trying to silence you an your brilliance by calling you a troll, you could not be more wrong. i am open to discussion. but if you try an intellectually attack a people of who you know little about, well i might seem a bit rude when i answer you. but i will answer you. troll.

Originally Posted by BrokeProphet

You do seem to understand that the state of Israel was a mistake though.

i think we can agree on this.

[BrokeProphet]

Originally Posted by lostmyface

Basically yes.

SO....

To be clear, you assert, a group of people, most of whom practice a religion in which an all powerful being deems them the chosen, a certain patch of Earth as holy, and promises to get them there in divine prophecy, did not want to go to this holy land, and that they wound up there, purely by historical chance, despite their desire to go against the wishes of their God, and the prophecy of their cannon.
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Well that just seems fucking silly, doesn't it?

It seems down right retarded considering you assert this without evidence to back it up, as is shown below...

Originally Posted by lostmyface

by the 18th century the jewish religion had taken a massive idealogical turn. an while almost all jews at that time felt they were a chosen people, many no longer viewed israel as a holy land. it had become an idea, not a place. the prophecy had also been reinterpreted. where before it was all about wondering lost in the diaspora until god deemed us ready for a return, now it was about fixing the world around us into a better place, a place worthy of god. a return to israel did not factor in these plans at all..

The following seems to suggest the exact opposite of what you are asserting, and backs my assertion, as do all other articles I have read on the stated goals of Zionism....

Although the Zionist movement was created by Theodor Herzl in 1897, the history of Zionism can be seen as beginning earlier and related to the Jewish religion and history. Before the Holocaust the movement's central focus was the creation of a Jewish National Home and cultural centre in Palestine by facilitating Jewish migration. After the Holocaust, the movement focussed on creation of a Jewish state, attaining its goal in 1948 with the creation of Israel. After the creation of Israel, the Zionist movement acted to support Israel, assist persecuted Jews and worked to encourage Jewish emigration to Israel. The percentage of the world's Jews who live in Israel has steadily grown over the years and today 40% of the world's Jews live in Israel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Zionism

Feel free back up your assertion with SOMETHING a bit more substantial than your word alone, at anytime, or feel free to change the title of the thread to.....

"Ask a Jew, and accept his unsubstantiated answers as fact, else the aforementioned Jew will engage you in ad hominem"

Originally Posted by lostmyface

but if you try an intellectually attack a people of who you know little about, well i might seem a bit rude when i answer you. but i will answer you. troll.

I know that Judaism has been a very important part of Jewish culture and has influenced Jews a great deal for the past 3000 years or so. I know that in this religion God deems them the chosen ones, and it is declared that a particular patch of Earth is the Holy Land, and this God promises to return them to this birthright.

I know that the stated goals of Zionism has been to return to this Holy Land, and that low and behold, they return to it. I know, and so do you, that creating this state was a major mistake.

What I don't know is how someone can feel the Jews just happened to wind up there, through no fault of their own?

But you do feel that way, and are free to do so, even in the face of the evidence that seems to indicate otherwise (stated and realized goals of zionists and the stated goals of the Jewish faith).

You simply suggesting that the place in which some of the most important biblical events occured, is not important to the Jewish faithful, does not make it so. So call me a troll for asking questions you continue to bullshit around with, and I will call you a cunt for bullshitting around with them. cunt.

[Ron Smythberg]

I would advise you just ignore "BrokeProphet", lostmyface. His name is very descriptive of what he is. He really is not worth your time or your effort.

The fact is, Christians and Jews alike both believe that Israel is the land of the Hebrews. That means a high majority of theists all can agree that Israel belongs to the Jewish people.

Israel was 100% legally attained and all land that was previously owned by muslims was bought. When you buy something from someone, pay for it, you have made a contract. You can't just turn back on your contract. This is precisely what the terrorists are doing. They agreed to give up their land, and now they are whining trying to get what rightfully belongs to the nation of Israel.

Israel is a thriving country amid a region marked by poverty. You really think there would have been a better country if we just left it how it was before?

Israel is also a major U.S ally. Israel is probably the only country in the Mid-East region that U.S can really trust. That makes it a major player and an asset.

No,no,NO! Do not give me that hogwash about Israel being a "mistake". I am disappointed in the Op's weakness of actually siding with that anti-semite. If you are a Jew or a Christian, you understand that Israel was given by G-D to the Jews who are the chosen people. I understand that atheists have different views, but you have to understand that your unwillingness to accept G-d makes having any kind of intelligent debate very difficult.

peace to all nations,
Ronshim.

[BrokeProphet]

Originally Posted by Ron Smythberg

I would advise you just ignore "BrokeProphet", lostmyface. His name is very descriptive of what he is. He really is not worth your time or your effort..

I would advise you to ignore Mr. Smythberg here, his name is very descriptive of what he is.

I don't really feel that way, and would not suggest someone ignore your valid points based on your Jewish name. I am just not a cunt like that.

Originally Posted by Ron Smythberg

The fact is, Christians and Jews alike both believe that Israel is the land of the Hebrews. That means a high majority of theists all can agree that Israel belongs to the Jewish people...

That was a valid point I was making........should he ignore it only when I say it, again based on my name?

Originally Posted by Ron Smythberg

Israel was 100% legally attained and all land that was previously owned by muslims was bought..

History, allow me to introduce you to Ron.

Ron this is history....

During World War I, British Foreign Secretary Arthur Balfour issued what became known as the Balfour Declaration, which "view[ed] with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people." The Jewish Legion, a group of battalions composed primarily of Zionist volunteers, assisted in the British conquest of Palestine.

In 1922, the League of Nations granted the United Kingdom a mandate over Palestine for the express purpose of "placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home".

After WWII.....

The British had notified the U.N. of their intent to terminate the mandate not later than 1 August 1948, but Jewish Leadership led by future Prime Minister, David Ben-Gurion, declared independence on 14 May. The State of Israel declared itself as an independent nation, and was quickly recognized by the Soviet Union, the United States, and many other countries, but not by the surrounding Arab states. Over the next few days, approximately 1,000 Lebanese, 5,000 Syrian, 5,000 Iraqi, 10,000 Egyptian troops invaded Israel.

With violence, bloodshed and war until the present.

The preceding information was found at... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#...ritish_Mandate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British...e_of_Palestine

NOW, I looked on there and did not see anywhere, a pricetag the Jews paid the Palestinians.

See if you can.

Originally Posted by Ron Smythberg

Israel is a thriving country amid a region marked by poverty. You really think there would have been a better country if we just left it how it was before?

No it would not have been, but it would have turned into a thriving country were the U.S. to give them what we gave Israel....

Total U.S. aid to Israel is approximately one-third of the American foreign-aid budget, even though Israel comprises just .001 percent of the world's population.
http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

What did you think made Israel a thriving nation amid such poverty?

God?

Originally Posted by Ron Smythberg

Israel is also a major U.S ally. Israel is probably the only country in the Mid-East region that U.S can really trust. That makes it a major player and an asset..

They better be a major ally as much money and support as we have given them. Again, could have made any country a major ally if we kissed it's ass like we have Israel.

Originally Posted by Ron Smythberg

No,no,NO! Do not give me that hogwash about Israel being a "mistake". I am disappointed in the Op's weakness of actually siding with that anti-semite.

How was Israel not a mistake?

The formation of the state of Israel has spilled blood for nearly half a century, b/c of it's location. It's existence is not and has never been the problem, it is it's location, which happens to be on top of impoverished conquered Arabs.

Wouldn't it have been better to clear cut some Brazilian jungle, nobody was using, and spend what we have paid Israel for the past 50 years buying it from Brazil and setting up infrastructure?

How is Israel in Palestine, and the bloodshed it has brought, better than that?

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Originally Posted by Ron Smythberg

If you are a Jew or a Christian, you understand that Israel was given by G-D to the Jews who are the chosen people. I understand that atheists have different views, but you have to understand that your unwillingness to accept G-d makes having any kind of intelligent debate very difficult.

Simple ad hominem.

Me being atheist has NOTHING to do with my ability to intelligently argue that the creation of Israel was a mistake, nor does it invalidate any point I have made thus far.

You foolishly suggest that if I agreed with you, we could have an intelligent debate.

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Rather than listen to what I have to say it is easier to plug your fingers in your ear and tell yourself that I must be an anti-semite b/c I am critical of the decision to create the state of Israel in it's current location.

Way to fail.

[BrokeProphet]

Are we done asking jews?

[Ron Smythberg]

Originally Posted by BrokeProphet

Are we done asking jews?

Nice job hijacking a thread, mindless troll.

Edit: And way to quote wikipedia... LOL

[Obbe]

Originally Posted by BrokeProphet

Are we done asking jews?

Are you done harassing others because they believe something is reasonable that you believe in unreasonable?

[Ron Smythberg]

Originally Posted by BrokeProphet

During World War I, British Foreign Secretary Arthur Balfour issued what became known as the Balfour Declaration, which "view[ed] with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people." The Jewish Legion, a group of battalions composed primarily of Zionist volunteers, assisted in the British conquest of Palestine.

In 1922, the League of Nations granted the United Kingdom a mandate over Palestine for the express purpose of "placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home".

After WWII.....

The British had notified the U.N. of their intent to terminate the mandate not later than 1 August 1948, but Jewish Leadership led by future Prime Minister, David Ben-Gurion, declared independence on 14 May. The State of Israel declared itself as an independent nation, and was quickly recognized by the Soviet Union, the United States, and many other countries, but not by the surrounding Arab states. Over the next few days, approximately 1,000 Lebanese, 5,000 Syrian, 5,000 Iraqi, 10,000 Egyptian troops invaded Israel.

Okay, I admit. There was some bloodshed. Both sides are to blame though. The arabs refuse to accept Israel as a permanent and leading nation in that region.

I will give you that, and it is much more then you deserve, given the utter disrespect you have shown me. (And don't give me anymore of that "ad-hominen" bullshit.)


Instead of spending all my time disproving this pompous troll, I will instead make this post into a positive by expressing my wishes for a Happy and Joyous Hanukkah.

Please wish the best for Israel as you celebrate this most holy of occasion.

So to all the Jews on totse, HAPPY HANUKKAH!

[BrokeProphet]

Originally Posted by Ron Smythberg

Okay, I admit. There was some bloodshed. Both sides are to blame though. The arabs refuse to accept Israel as a permanent and leading nation in that region.

Why should they accept having their land stolen from them? I personally wish they would, but completely understand why they don't.

I don't think it is fair that you suggest the Palestinians who were invaded by forces intent on setting up a Jewish state are to blame.

I digress......

My entire point was that things would have been better for everyone, (Jews, Arabs, and Americans) if the Jewish people were given land elsewhere.

Tell me how I am wrong with that assertion.

Tell me how setting up Israel in Brazilian clear cut, and paid for jungle, would have been as bad as the current situation.

Tell me how setting up the Jewish state in Alaska, and just giving the entire state of Alaska to the Jews, would have been as bad as the current situation.

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How can you or anyone else HONESTLY believe the creation of Israel on the holy land was a good idea?

Originally Posted by Ron Smythberg

I will give you that, and it is much more then you deserve, given the utter disrespect you have shown me. (And don't give me anymore of that "ad-hominen" bullshit.).

Tell me, what did you do in our conversation that warranted my respect?

>>>Was it suggesting I be ignored on the basis of my name?
>>>Was it accusing me of being an anti-semite, b/c I simply disagree with the creation of Israel on Palestine (which is not being an anti-semite, btw)?
>>>Was it when you called me a troll, in your intitial trollish post?

You STARTED our entire conversation with these three things, and actually expected a respectful response? You honestly expect to just walk up to someone you disagree with, call them names, and then feel you deserve respect?

Get fucked.

----

I will now go ahead and show you what disrespect from me is, so that you will understand the difference between me being disrespectful, and me being poignant:

I am amazed that someone who can read and write can be as dumb as you. I am now convinced that you are in a shelter somewhere and you and at least two other drooling, helmet-wearing, waterheads are using every bit of your pickled brain power to come up with something clever or intelligent to say.

Your primitive attempts at forming any kind of valid point has been about as entertaining as watching a cross eyed retarded puppy trying to lick it's asshole, and it has been about that sad and pathetic, as well.

So before I break down into tears, either from laughter or genuine pity, just stop.