ask a jew

[lostmyface]

Originally Posted by BrokeProphet

Perhaps, some jungle could have been clear-cut for you guys in South America, and all of that bloodshed need not have happened and continue to this day.

You could all be farming fruit, sugar, coffee and chocolate and not have a man with bomb blow your granny to bits in a crowded bus.

for a while there were plans of having the jews live in what is now either aregentina or kenya. the kenyan deal was very close to happening. but the british decided to play the jews an the arabs off of each other in order to hurt the ottoman empire.(kenya an palestine were both british held territories) most of the european jews moving into palestian did not realize they were pawns. as for the arabs living there, they were shafted not only by the new jewish settlers but also by their own leaders, other arab states, the ottomans, an the west. again my heart an prays, as do many other jews hearts an prays go out to those people.

broke prophet i know you are a troll an there is nothing i am going to say that will satisfy you


---------

Originally Posted by BrokeProphet

What I find deplorable is that the Jewish people had to have the holy land, at any cost. A cost that is being paid to this day, by Israeli and American alike.

up untill the 1940's many jews did not want to go to palestine. they wanted some other more fertile land. judasim, as a religion had taken a new turn, an was no longer as focused on returning to a physical jersualem, to many zion had become a state of mind, not a actual place. it was only when the brits an french promised the land that jews began to flock to it once again. once the jews arrived, an found out that the brits had lied to them, they fought back. you would have as well. again this is not an excuse, it is how history played out.

Originally Posted by BrokeProphet

Those actions are just Old testament style responses to fulfill a self fulfilling prophecy. How many times have Jews killed whomever, be it man, woman, or child, in the name of that patch of Earth?

before 1945, not for over 2000 years. but i agree many actions carried out by the jewish state are deplorable. i think the actions are based on realist political theory and a desire to keep the land bought/fought/promised them. not so much on old testemant style responses to fulfill a self fulfilling prophecy.

again none of my answers are going to be the ones you want to hear, you make the common mistake of identifying the jewish state an the jewish people as one an the same. when in truth we could not be more separate. so maybe you should just stop reading this thread, m'kay.

Originally Posted by killallthewhiteman

On the kosher food.

Do Jews believe that these laws are derived from a spiritual transcendental context? (the word/will of God)

It seems to me these laws/rules are derived from material nature rather than the spiritual nature; of course a few millenniums ago at a time very different to this age it would have been practical. But in kali- yuga when there is a vast amount of technology and increasing technology we understand it is understood that the costs to human health for animals who "dont chew the cud" or have "cloven hooves" can be reduces and removed through an understanding of hygiene.

Or are the laws not derived from negative health costs?

please clear this up

kosher is a very complex aspect of judaism. i did not do it justice in a earlier post, because it is would require me to write out a few pages to fully explain it, and i dont have the time to do that. an i doubted any of you want to read it. but here i go on a bit more detailed look at whay kosher means.

Kashrut is the body of Jewish law dealing with what foods we can and cannot eat and how those foods must be prepared and eaten. "Kashrut" comes from the Hebrew root Kaf-Shin-Reish, meaning fit, proper or correct. It is the same root as the more commonly known word "kosher," which describes food that meets these standards. The word "kosher" can also be used, and often is used, to describe ritual objects that are made in accordance with Jewish law and are fit for ritual use.

Contrary to popular misconception, rabbis or other religious officials do not "bless" food to make it kosher. There are blessings that observant Jews recite over food before eating it, but these blessings have nothing to do with making the food kosher. Food can be kosher without a rabbi or priest ever becoming involved with it: the vegetables from your garden are undoubtedly kosher (as long as they don't have any bugs, which are not kosher!). However, in our modern world of processed foods, it is difficult to know what ingredients are in your food and how they were processed, so it is helpful to have a rabbi examine the food and its processing and assure kosher consumers that the food is kosher. This certification process is discussed below.

There is no such thing as "kosher-style" food. Kosher is not a style of cooking. Chinese food can be kosher if it is prepared in accordance with Jewish law, and there are many fine kosher Chinese restaurants in Philadelphia and New York. Traditional Ashkenazic Jewish foods like knishes, bagels, blintzes, and matzah ball soup can all be non-kosher if not prepared in accordance with Jewish law. When a restaurant calls itself "kosher-style," it usually means that the restaurant serves these traditional Jewish foods, and it almost invariably means that the food is not actually kosher.

Food that is not kosher is commonly referred to as treif (lit. torn, from the commandment not to eat animals that have been torn by other animals).
Why Do We Observe the Laws of Kashrut?

Many modern Jews think that the laws of kashrut are simply primitive health regulations that have become obsolete with modern methods of food preparation. There is no question that some of the dietary laws have some beneficial health effects. For example, the laws regarding kosher slaughter are so sanitary that kosher butchers and slaughterhouses have been exempted from many USDA regulations.

However, health is not the only reason for Jewish dietary laws. Many of the laws of kashrut have no known connection with health. To the best of our modern scientific knowledge, there is no reason why camel or rabbit meat (both treif) is any less healthy than cow or goat meat. In addition, some of the health benefits to be derived from kashrut were not made obsolete by the refrigerator. For example, there is some evidence that eating meat and dairy together interferes with digestion, and no modern food preparation technique reproduces the health benefit of the kosher law of eating them separately.

[lostmyface]

in recent years, several secular sources that have seriously looked into this matter have acknowledged that health does not explain these prohibitions. Some have suggested that the prohibitions are instead derived from environmental considerations. For example, a camel (which is not kosher) is more useful as a beast of burden than as a source of food. In the Middle Eastern climate, the pig consumes a quantity of food that is disproportional to its value as a food source. But again, these are not reasons that come from Jewish tradition.

The short answer to why Jews observe these laws is: because the Torah says so. The Torah does not specify any reason for these laws, and for a Torah-observant, traditional Jew, there is no need for any other reason. Some have suggested that the laws of kashrut fall into the category of "chukkim," laws for which there is no reason. We show our obedience to G-d by following these laws even though we do not know the reason. Others, however, have tried to ascertain G-d's reason for imposing these laws.

Rabbi Hayim Halevy Donin suggests that the dietary laws are designed as a call to holiness. The ability to distinguish between right and wrong, good and evil, pure and defiled, the sacred and the profane, is very important in Judaism. Imposing rules on what you can and cannot eat ingrains that kind of self control, requiring us to learn to control even our most basic, primal instincts.

Donin also points out that the laws of kashrut elevate the simple act of eating into a religious ritual. The Jewish dinner table is often compared to the Temple altar in rabbinic literature. A Jew who observes the laws of kashrut cannot eat a meal without being reminded of the fact that he is a Jew.


People who do not keep kosher often tell me how difficult it is. Actually, keeping kosher is not particularly difficult in and of itself; what makes it difficult to keep kosher is the fact that the rest of the world does not do so.


Keeping kosher only becomes difficult when you try to eat in a non-kosher restaurant, or at the home of a person who does not keep kosher. In those situations, your lack of knowledge about your host's ingredients and food preparation techniques make it very difficult to keep kosher. Some commentators have pointed out, however, that this may well have been part of what G-d had in mind: to make it more difficult for us to socialize with those who do not share our religion.(i think this is bunk)

Although the details of kashrut are extensive, the laws all derive from a few fairly simple, straightforward rules:

1. Certain animals may not be eaten at all. This restriction includes the flesh, organs, eggs and milk of the forbidden animals.
2. Of the animals that may be eaten, the birds and mammals must be killed in accordance with Jewish law.
3. All blood must be drained from the meat or broiled out of it before it is eaten.
4. Certain parts of permitted animals may not be eaten.
5. Fruits and vegetables are permitted, but must be inspected for bugs
6. Meat (the flesh of birds and mammals) cannot be eaten with dairy. Fish, eggs, fruits, vegetables and grains can be eaten with either meat or dairy. (According to some views, fish may not be eaten with meat).
7. Utensils that have come into contact with meat may not be used with dairy, and vice versa. Utensils that have come into contact with non-kosher food may not be used with kosher food. This applies only where the contact occurred while the food was hot.
8. Grape products made by non-Jews may not be eaten.
9. There are a few other rules that are not universal.

Of the "beasts of the earth" (which basically refers to land mammals with the exception of swarming rodents), you may eat any animal that has cloven hooves and chews its cud. Lev. 11:3; Deut. 14:6. Any land mammal that does not have both of these qualities is forbidden. The Torah specifies that the camel, the rock badger, the hare and the pig are not kosher because each lacks one of these two qualifications. Sheep, cattle, goats, deer and bison are kosher.

[lostmyface]

Of the things that are in the waters, you may eat anything that has fins and scales. Lev. 11:9; Deut. 14:9. Thus, shellfish such as lobsters, oysters, shrimp, clams and crabs are all forbidden. Fish like tuna, carp, salmon and herring are all permitted.

For birds, the criteria is less clear. The Torah provides a list of forbidden birds (Lev. 11:13-19; Deut. 14:11-18), but does not specify why these particular birds are forbidden. All of the birds on the list are birds of prey or scavengers, thus the rabbis inferred that this was the basis for the distinction. Other birds are permitted, such as chicken, geese, ducks and turkeys. However, some people avoid turkey, because it is not mentioned in the Torah, leaving room for doubt.

Of the "winged swarming things" (winged insects), a few are specifically permitted (Lev. 11:22), but the Sages are no longer certain which ones they are, so all have been forbidden. There are communities that have a tradition about what species are permitted, and in those communities some insects are eaten.

Rodents, reptiles, amphibians, and insects (except as mentioned above) are all forbidden. Lev. 11:29-30, 42-43.

Some authorities require a post-mortem examination of the lungs of cattle, to determine whether the lungs are free from adhesions. If the lungs are free from such adhesions, the animal is deemed "glatt" (that is, "smooth"). In certain circumstances, an animal can be kosher without being glatt; however, the stringency of keeping "glatt kosher" has become increasingly common in recent years, and you would be hard-pressed to find any kosher meat that is not labeled as "glatt kosher."

As mentioned above, any product derived from these forbidden animals, such as their milk, eggs, fat, or organs, also cannot be eaten. Rennet, an enzyme used to harden cheese, is often obtained from non-kosher animals, thus kosher hard cheese can be difficult to find.
Kosher slaughtering

The mammals and birds that may be eaten must be slaughtered in accordance with Jewish law. (Deut. 12:21). We may not eat animals that died of natural causes (Deut. 14:21) or that were killed by other animals. In addition, the animal must have no disease or flaws in the organs at the time of slaughter. These restrictions do not apply to fish; only to the flocks and herds (Num. 11:22).

Ritual slaughter is known as shechitah, and the person who performs the slaughter is called a shochet, both from the Hebrew root Shin-Cheit-Tav, meaning to destroy or kill. The method of slaughter is a quick, deep stroke across the throat with a perfectly sharp blade with no nicks or unevenness. This method is painless, causes unconsciousness within two seconds, and is widely recognized as the most humane method of slaughter possible.

Another advantage of shechitah is that it ensures rapid, complete draining of the blood, which is also necessary to render the meat kosher.

The shochet is not simply a butcher; he must be a pious man, well-trained in Jewish law, particularly as it relates to kashrut. In smaller, more remote communities, the rabbi and the shochet were often the same person.
Draining of Blood

The Torah prohibits consumption of blood. Lev. 7:26-27; Lev. 17:10-14. This is the only dietary law that has a reason specified in Torah: we do not eat blood because the life of the animal (literally, the soul of the animal) is contained in the blood. This applies only to the blood of birds and mammals, not to fish blood. Thus, it is necessary to remove all blood from the flesh of kosher animals.

The first step in this process occurs at the time of slaughter. As discussed above, shechitah allows for rapid draining of most of the blood.

The remaining blood must be removed, either by broiling or soaking and salting. Liver may only be kashered by the broiling method, because it has so much blood in it and such complex blood vessels. This final process must be completed within 72 hours after slaughter, and before the meat is frozen or ground. Most butchers and all frozen food vendors take care of the soaking and salting for you, but you should always check this when you are buying someplace you are unfamiliar with.

[lostmyface]

An egg that contains a blood spot may not be eaten. This isn't very common, but I find them once in a while. It is a good idea to break an egg into a glass and check it before you put it into a heated pan, because if you put a blood-stained egg into a heated pan, the pan becomes non-kosher.
Forbidden Fats and Nerves

The sciatic nerve and its adjoining blood vessels may not be eaten. The process of removing this nerve is time consuming and not cost-effective, so most American slaughterers simply sell the hind quarters to non-kosher butchers.

A certain kind of fat, known as chelev, which surrounds the vital organs and the liver, may not be eaten. Kosher butchers remove this. Modern scientists have found biochemical differences between this type of fat and the permissible fat around the muscles and under the skin.
Fruits and Vegetables

All fruits and vegetables are kosher (but see the note regarding Grape Products below). However, bugs and worms that may be found in some fruits and vegetables are not kosher. Fruits and vegetables that are prone to this sort of thing should be inspected to ensure that they contain no bugs. Leafy vegetables like lettuce and herbs and flowery vegetables like broccoli and cauliflower are particularly prone to bugs and should be inspected carefully. Strawberries and raspberries can also be problematic. The Star-K kosher certification organization has a very nice overview of the fruits and vegetables prone to this and the procedure for addressing it in each type.
Separation of Meat and Dairy

On three separate occasions, the Torah tells us not to "boil a kid in its mother's milk." (Ex. 23:19; Ex. 34:26; Deut. 14:21). The Oral Torah explains that this passage prohibits eating meat and dairy together. The rabbis extended this prohibition to include not eating milk and poultry together. In addition, the Talmud prohibits cooking meat and fish together or serving them on the same plates, because it is considered to be unhealthy. It is, however, permissible to eat fish and dairy together, and it is quite common (lox and cream cheese, for example). It is also permissible to eat dairy and eggs together.

This separation includes not only the foods themselves, but the utensils, pots and pans with which they are cooked, the plates and flatware from which they are eaten, the dishwashers or dishpans in which they are cleaned, and the towels on which they are dried. A kosher household will have at least two sets of pots, pans and dishes: one for meat and one for dairy. See Utensils below for more details.

One must wait a significant amount of time between eating meat and dairy. Opinions differ, and vary from three to six hours. This is because fatty residues and meat particles tend to cling to the mouth. From dairy to meat, however, one need only rinse one's mouth and eat a neutral solid like bread, unless the dairy product in question is also of a type that tends to stick in the mouth.

The Yiddish words fleishik (meat), milchik (dairy) and pareve (neutral) are commonly used to describe food or utensils that fall into one of those categories.

Note that even the smallest quantity of dairy (or meat) in something renders it entirely dairy (or meat) for purposes of kashrut. For example, most margarines are dairy for kosher purposes, because they contain a small quantity of whey or other dairy products to give it a buttery taste. Animal fat is considered meat for purposes of kashrut. You should read the ingredients very carefully, even if the product is kosher-certified.
Utensils

Utensils (pots, pans, plates, flatware, etc., etc.) must also be kosher. A utensil picks up the kosher "status" (meat, dairy, pareve, or treif) of the food that is cooked in it or eaten off of it, and transmits that status back to the next food that is cooked in it or eaten off of it. Thus, if you cook chicken soup in a saucepan, the pan becomes meat. If you thereafter use the same saucepan to heat up some warm milk, the fleishik status of the pan is transmitted to the milk, and the milchik status of the milk is transmitted to the pan, making both the pan and the milk a forbidden mixture.

Kosher status can be transmitted from the food to the utensil or from the utensil to the food only in the presence of heat, thus if you are eating cold food in a non-kosher establishment, the condition of the plates is not an issue. Likewise, you could use the same knife to slice cold cuts and cheese, as long as you clean it in between, but this is not really a recommended procedure, because it increases the likelihood of mistakes.

Stove tops and sinks routinely become non-kosher utensils, because they routinely come in contact with both meat and dairy in the presence of heat. It is necessary, therefore, to use dishpans when cleaning dishes (don't soak them directly in the sink) and to use separate spoon rests and trivets when putting things down on the stove top.

Dishwashers are a kashrut problem. If you are going to use a dishwasher for both meat and dairy in a kosher home, you either need to have separate dish racks or you need to run the dishwasher in between meat and dairy loads.

You should use separate towels and pot holders for meat and dairy. Routine laundering kashers such items, so you can simply launder them between using them for meat and dairy.

Certain kinds of utensils can be "kashered" if you make a mistake and use it with both meat and dairy. Consult a rabbi for guidance if this situation occurs.
Grape Products

The restrictions on grape products derive from the laws against using products of idolatry. Wine was commonly used in the rituals of all ancient religions, and wine was routinely sanctified for pagan purposes while it was being processed. For this reason, use of wines and other grape products made by non-Jews was prohibited. (Whole grapes are not a problem, nor are whole grapes in fruit cocktail).

For the most part, this rule only affects wine and grape juice. This becomes a concern with many fruit drinks or fruit-flavored drinks, which are often sweetened with grape juice. You may also notice that some baking powders are not kosher, because baking powder is sometimes made with cream of tartar, a by-product of wine making. All beer used to be kosher, but this is no longer the case because fruity beers made with grape products have become more common.

There are a few additional considerations that come up, that you may hear discussed in more sophisticated discussions of kashrut.


Bishul Yisroel
In certain circumstances, a Jew (that is, someone who is required to keep kosher) must be involved in the preparation of food for it to be kosher. This rule is discussed in depth under Food Fit for a King on the Star-K kosher certification website.
Cholov Yisroel
An ancient rule required that a Jew must be present from the time of milking to the time of bottling to ensure that milk from kosher animals did not become mixed with milk from non-kosher animals. Milk that is observed in this way is referred to as Cholov Yisroel, and some people will consume only Cholov Yisroel. However, in the United States, federal law relating to the production of milk is so strict that many Orthodox sources accept any milk as kosher. You will sometimes see high-level discussions of kashrut address whether a product is Cholov Yisroel or non-Cholov Yisroel. See a more complete discussion under Cholov Yisroel: Does a Neshama Good on the Star-K kosher certification website.
Mevushal
Most kosher wines in America are made using a process of pasteurization called mevushal, which addresses some of the kashrut issues related to grape beverages. See The Art of Kosher Wine Making on the Star-K kosher certification website.


About 25% to 30% of Jews in America keep kosher to one extent or another. This includes the vast majority of people who identify themselves as Orthodox, as well as many Conservative and Reconstructionist Jews and some Reform Jews.

However, the standards that are observed vary substantially from one person to another. According to the 1990 National Jewish Population Survey (NJPS), only about 17% of Jewish families eat kosher meat all the time. (see Table 28 in the survey, if you can find it -- I can no longer locate it online). Others keep kosher more strictly some times than others.

The strictest people will eat only foods that have reliable Orthodox kosher certification, eating only glatt-kosher certified meats and specially certified dairy products. They will not eat cooked food in a restaurant unless the restaurant has reliable Orthodox certification, and they are unlikely to accept an invitation to dinner from anyone who is not known to share their high standards.

Others are more lenient. Some will "ingredients read," accepting grocery store items that do not contain any identifiably non-kosher ingredients. Some will eat cooked food in a restaurant or a non-kosher home, as long as the meal is either vegetarian or uses only kosher meat and no dairy products. Some will eat non-kosher meat in restaurants, but only if the meat comes from a kosher animal and is not served with dairy products. Many of these more lenient people keep stricter standards in their homes than they do in restaurants or in other people's homes.

As rabbi Moline noted, "Everyone who keeps kosher will tell you that his version is the only correct version. Everyone else is either a fanatic or a heretic." . There is a lot of truth in this humorous observation.

hopefuly this was not too long an you all managed to get through it. if you want me to explain anything else i touched on in a similar manner(such as the different forms of judasim) i will be happy to do so.

[hollywood undead 420]

^fuck those gay ass rules

sorry but that makes me not like jews that much now

EDIT: you are jew?

woah

[lostmyface]

Originally Posted by hollywood undead 420

^fuck those gay ass rules

sorry but that makes me not like jews that much now

EDIT: you are jew?

woah

i am not a fan of the rules myself, an i only keep kosher when i am in a kosher house. other than that, bring on the double bacon cheese burgers.

if those rules alone make you not like a religion, well i feel sorry for your close mindedness.

yes, i am a jew, just not a practicing jew. ie i dont go to synagogue or keep kosher or observe any of the holidays.

woah is right

[killallthewhiteman]

fuck man thats heaps.

Dont pay attention to holy wood, it takes commitment to be kosher huh. Its admirable that jews pay such close attention to their diet, even if it lacks an ontological basis they are still paying more attention to the secular atheist who has no clear defined rules on diet, in other words because Jews are conscious of their diet they are using discrimination which is the most fundamental aspect to human consciousness; whilst the westerners go about with there diet indiscriminately without any ontological basis other than the material sense of taste. Its funny that people like Hollywood are critical of kosher diet when they pay no attention to their diet (at least he did not argue this, which he should of since he disagreed with you).

Thank you for explaining the reality of kosher but i would like to know about the ontology of the kosher diet.

So obviously its Judaic law, is this because keeping a kosher diet will strengthen the relationship with God? If so what is so spiritual about discriminating between these animals and animal products.

One of the ten commandments is though shalt not kill; so why are you killing animals?

Is killing an animal something different to "killing" as it is defined in your scripture?

God created all living entities with a soul; this is not the scientific definition of "living"; what gives Jews the right to kill another soul? Surely that should be left to God?

That is my reality; the ontology is that God created all things; i think that is something that Jews understand. Our true nature is that we are not this material body but an eternal spirit soul. Killing an animal is in the mode of ignorance to the mode of satva (spiritual understanding /knowledge), which is the most favorable mode.(note: i am not a vegetarian but im working on it).

How is it that killing animals and going against your commandment is in the mode of satva; or bringing you closer to God?

Do share the jewish understanding

[BrokeProphet]

Originally Posted by lostmyface

up untill the 1940's many jews did not want to go to palestine. they wanted some other more fertile land. judasim, as a religion had taken a new turn, an was no longer as focused on returning to a physical jersualem, to many zion had become a state of mind, not a actual place.

So you assert, a group of people, most of whom practice a religion in which an all powerful being deems them the chosen, a certain patch of Earth as holy, and promises to get them there in divine prophecy, did not want to go to this holy land?

What's more is that they accidently wound up there, despite their desire to go against the wishes of their God, and the prophecy of their cannon?

This is what you are telling me?

-------

You don't see why someone would find what you are suggesting a little hard to believe? So much that you call me a troll and tell me to stop reading your thread?

Okay, I guess it is just a way fucking out there kind of insinuation, and any rational person would quickly come to a different conclusion.

You do seem to understand that the state of Israel was a mistake though.

[lostmyface]

Originally Posted by BrokeProphet

So you assert, a group of people, most of whom practice a religion in which an all powerful being deems them the chosen, a certain patch of Earth as holy, and promises to get them there in divine prophecy, did not want to go to this holy land?

by the 18th century the jewish religion had taken a massive idealogical turn. an while almost all jews at that time felt they were a chosen people, many no longer viewed israel as a holy land. it had become an idea, not a place. the prophecy had also been reinterpreted. where before it was all about wondering lost in the diaspora until god deemed us ready for a return, now it was about fixing the world around us into a better place, a place worthy of god. a return to israel did not factor in these plans at all.

Originally Posted by BrokeProphet

What's more is that they accidently wound up there, despite their desire to go against the wishes of their God, and the prophecy of their cannon?

not accident, but by chance of historical events. if not for world war one i doubt an israeli state would be here today. i doubt the fanatical jews you see in israel today would be around either if not for the west. it was a need to destabilize the region that led the brits an french to start exporting jews to the middle east. those early settlers were pawns just like the original arab owners of the land. as far as wishes an prophecies go i think i have explained in several other post the reinterpretation of the jewish religion an philosophy over the past four centuries. but i doubt you really read any of my post cause you keep posting the same questions. hence why i called you a troll.

Originally Posted by BrokeProphet

This is what you are telling me?

basically, yes.

Originally Posted by BrokeProphet

You don't see why someone would find what you are suggesting a little hard to believe? So much that you call me a troll and tell me to stop reading your thread?

some one who did not understand that there was a difference between the jews of 3000 years ago an the jews of today. they would definetly have trouble grasping onto what i am saying. also some one who has little to no background in middle eastern history over the past 200 years. they might also have trouble getting what i am saying. but some one as knowlegebal as you? no i am sure you hear me just fine.

i called you a troll because you keep asking the same questions that i feel i have answered in other post.

Originally Posted by BrokeProphet

Okay, I guess it is just a way fucking out there kind of insinuation, and any rational person would quickly come to a different conclusion.

fucking out there kind of insinuation, what does that even mean? if you think i am trying to silence you an your brilliance by calling you a troll, you could not be more wrong. i am open to discussion. but if you try an intellectually attack a people of who you know little about, well i might seem a bit rude when i answer you. but i will answer you. troll.

Originally Posted by BrokeProphet

You do seem to understand that the state of Israel was a mistake though.

i think we can agree on this.

[BrokeProphet]

Originally Posted by lostmyface

Basically yes.

SO....

To be clear, you assert, a group of people, most of whom practice a religion in which an all powerful being deems them the chosen, a certain patch of Earth as holy, and promises to get them there in divine prophecy, did not want to go to this holy land, and that they wound up there, purely by historical chance, despite their desire to go against the wishes of their God, and the prophecy of their cannon.
---------------------
Well that just seems fucking silly, doesn't it?

It seems down right retarded considering you assert this without evidence to back it up, as is shown below...

Originally Posted by lostmyface

by the 18th century the jewish religion had taken a massive idealogical turn. an while almost all jews at that time felt they were a chosen people, many no longer viewed israel as a holy land. it had become an idea, not a place. the prophecy had also been reinterpreted. where before it was all about wondering lost in the diaspora until god deemed us ready for a return, now it was about fixing the world around us into a better place, a place worthy of god. a return to israel did not factor in these plans at all..

The following seems to suggest the exact opposite of what you are asserting, and backs my assertion, as do all other articles I have read on the stated goals of Zionism....

Although the Zionist movement was created by Theodor Herzl in 1897, the history of Zionism can be seen as beginning earlier and related to the Jewish religion and history. Before the Holocaust the movement's central focus was the creation of a Jewish National Home and cultural centre in Palestine by facilitating Jewish migration. After the Holocaust, the movement focussed on creation of a Jewish state, attaining its goal in 1948 with the creation of Israel. After the creation of Israel, the Zionist movement acted to support Israel, assist persecuted Jews and worked to encourage Jewish emigration to Israel. The percentage of the world's Jews who live in Israel has steadily grown over the years and today 40% of the world's Jews live in Israel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Zionism

Feel free back up your assertion with SOMETHING a bit more substantial than your word alone, at anytime, or feel free to change the title of the thread to.....

"Ask a Jew, and accept his unsubstantiated answers as fact, else the aforementioned Jew will engage you in ad hominem"

Originally Posted by lostmyface

but if you try an intellectually attack a people of who you know little about, well i might seem a bit rude when i answer you. but i will answer you. troll.

I know that Judaism has been a very important part of Jewish culture and has influenced Jews a great deal for the past 3000 years or so. I know that in this religion God deems them the chosen ones, and it is declared that a particular patch of Earth is the Holy Land, and this God promises to return them to this birthright.

I know that the stated goals of Zionism has been to return to this Holy Land, and that low and behold, they return to it. I know, and so do you, that creating this state was a major mistake.

What I don't know is how someone can feel the Jews just happened to wind up there, through no fault of their own?

But you do feel that way, and are free to do so, even in the face of the evidence that seems to indicate otherwise (stated and realized goals of zionists and the stated goals of the Jewish faith).

You simply suggesting that the place in which some of the most important biblical events occured, is not important to the Jewish faithful, does not make it so. So call me a troll for asking questions you continue to bullshit around with, and I will call you a cunt for bullshitting around with them. cunt.