Free will.

i poop in your cerial · #1 2007-05-05, 12:04

Okay, I don't really know how to start this, it's a thought i've been carying around quite some time now, just wanted to share it.

God created everything, the earth, the trees, the animals, men, everything. Now, wether you go to hell or heaven, has to do with your behavour on earth, did you study medication and found a cure for cancer? Did you go on muderers rampages? The first would obviously get you an instant ticket to heaven, the second, you would go to hell.

Now, god created everything, thus he must have created the brains of both the Murder, and the Doctor. Free will you say? Well, since god created everything, he must have created that little part of the brain, which caused the murder, to go apeshit crazy and kill people. Now, what i do not comprehend is that god would send the 'bad' people to hell and punish them for an enternity, when he himself, created them, since he made EVERYTHING.

'We have free will, we can choose for ourselfs what we want to do'.
Obviously, the concept of BOTH God and free will is retarded, since god CREATED us, we are, as he made us to be, hence we do not have free will, this can not be argued.
Let me explain;
Even if we have the choice to choose for ourselfs, god made our brain, so he basically made the way we react to different things.

Drox · #2 2007-05-05, 15:37

A Christian response...

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/destined.php

i poop in your cerial · #3 2007-05-05, 15:54

That didn't really answer anything, it just avoided the point.

boozehound420 · #4 2007-05-05, 16:02

Actually you could find a cure for cancer and save 2 billion lives and still be burned for eternity.

If were assuming the christian god is the real one. Then you will burn if you work on sundays, or believe in another god. Or simply dont believe in any god. If were talking the muslim god, then you go to ell for eating pig and drinking. etc

And free will doesnt come with a set of rules and guide lines.

"You can do whatever you want, but if you dont follow my rules I will fucking torture you for ever"

The only people with free will in that sense are atheists, agnostics and deists.

CatharticWeek · #5 2007-05-05, 16:35

You see, god is so uber that even though he created the peramiters for us to fuck ourselves up, he knows our choices will be ok.
They might not seem ok to us, but they will to him, because he is god and shit and he is well uber.

easeoflife22 · #6 2007-05-05, 19:12

All possible paths you may take in life can be known, you have the free will to choose the one you believe to be right, or know to be wrong. You'll take all paths, but not all at once. God would never leave you without a path of richeousness. Even a murderer could have chosen to be a saint, and everyone will be both.

dead_people_killer · #7 2007-05-05, 20:41

Hell, as far as religion is concerned, is a construct devised by priests trying to control the masses through fear.

Proof? read the first testament and tell me where it even mentions hell.

KikoSanchez · #8 2007-05-06, 00:20

-In response to the "christian response"-

""The first, and most prevalent, incorrect assumption is that a person who is destined for hell has been predestined for hell by God. This is false. People choose to go to hell rather than submit their lives to God. You have absolute free will within the confines of your personal ability. You can prove this to yourself. Determine two possible courses of action. They don't have to be big decisions, just any two possible actions. Assign each action to either "heads" or "tails." Flip the coin and do what whatever course chance decided. You can do this as many times as needed to determine that you do, indeed, have free will. Occasionally, do the opposite of what the coins tell you. Has God prevented you from doing anything? No!""

- First he makes a circular argument for the existence of free will. He does not even show how, even if we did have free will, it could be compatible with god's omniscience. The only thing he is doing is arguing for a sort of St. Augustinian compatibilist version of free will, "we can do whatever we will ourselves to do," a tautoloigcally true assertion and which seems to also show that any living being has free will. He tells the reader two flip a coin for decision-making and to do the opposite of what the coin says to do and this somehow PROVES free will. Of course, he never shows how the whole experiment (and you reading his article) is somehow outside of god's predestined plan for you.

""The second incorrect assumption is that God alone has created you. You are the product of choices made by your parents. Therefore, God has not predestined you to be born at all. How can you blame Him for creating you to send you to hell?""

- Blatant circular argument assuming free will and rejection that omniscience means predestination.

i poop in your cerial · #9 2007-05-06, 09:30

I would like to state this again:
Even if we have the choice to choose for ourselfs, god made our brain, so he basically made the way we react to different things.

That's my main point. If someone could come up with a decent reply i would love to hear it.

"The second incorrect assumption is that God alone has created you. You are the product of choices made by your parents. Therefore, God has not predestined you to be born at all. How can you blame Him for creating you to send you to hell?"

This arguement is so retarded it's not really worth spending time on, but well, im bored.

Again, my argument can be used to explain this.
If, let's say, god created your parents, he also made THEIR brain, so, he made the way they react to different things, which let them to have babies. So he knew they would make babies.

CatharticWeek · #10 2007-05-06, 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by i poop in your cerial

I would like to state this again:
Even if we have the choice to choose for ourselfs, god made our brain, so he basically made the way we react to different things.

That's my main point. If someone could come up with a decent reply i would love to hear it.

Could god create a stone so heavy he couldn't lift it? I'm sure he could do either, I'm sure he could do both at the same time.
So while God created the universe, knowing what would happen, he threw the dice blindly, giving us a chance to solve it by ourselves.
This world is just a waiting room for the afterlife, God only judges man on their willingness to repent at the last moment, I don't think it's possible not to repent in the face of god.