View Full Version : How do Christians and Catholics feel about this?
easeoflife22
2008-09-21, 03:03
I was just Curious as to how Christians and Catholics feel about the historical fact that their religion was a combination of some Christianity, Pagan worship, and Sun God worship. Really, we actually know that the whole thing was fabricated, except for Historical Jesus. How can people follow this religion with this knowledge that it's phony? Everything about Christianity should be called into question, and the Church should be charged with fraud.
I myself believe in Christ, live by his ideals, and follow the 10 commandments. I do not however follow Christianity, as it's completely made up to secure order and power. I don't know how anyone can be a follower, when we all know it's not true.
I found the same information a while ago and personally it made Christianity a lot easier for me to handle.
I always had a problem with the fact that Christians teach "You should be like Christ, but all you have to do is believe in him to get to heaven, oh and if you don't you burn in hell forever." It seems to hurt spiritual development.
This is a great website on the subject http://30ce.com/
BrokeProphet
2008-09-21, 22:46
So, you all enjoy the fact that the new testemant is a bunch of bullshit?
Ignorance must be bliss.
Pandalicker41
2008-09-22, 00:27
I think that choosing something to believe in and sticking to it is a good thing, but organized religion is bullshit. All Christianity is is just a big social club; something to do on Sunday. The way I see it is, why not pick something to believe? In the end, you might be right, but if nothing happens, oh well. If you're a hardcore Atheist however, you're blatantly choosing not to believe anything and you're completely fucked if you're wrong.
I know everyone, no matter if they believe in anything or not, thinks that they're right. But it's better to be safe than sorry.
I think that choosing something to believe in and sticking to it is a good thing, but organized religion is bullshit. All Christianity is is just a big social club; something to do on Sunday. The way I see it is, why not pick something to believe? In the end, you might be right, but if nothing happens, oh well. If you're a hardcore Atheist however, you're blatantly choosing not to believe anything and you're completely fucked if you're wrong.
I know everyone, no matter if they believe in anything or not, thinks that they're right. But it's better to be safe than sorry.
Forcing yourself to believe isn't really believing at all.
So, you all enjoy the fact that the new testemant is a bunch of bullshit?
Ignorance must be bliss.
Let me rephrase, I found following Christ a lot easier after I realized the majority of the new testament was bullshit.
Pandalicker41
2008-09-22, 03:52
Forcing yourself to believe isn't really believing at all.
I didn't say you should force yourself. If you don't believe anything, fine, but you can't complain when things don't turn out the way you thought. All I'm saying is that religion is just a big gamble, and you can't win if you don't try. It's as simple as that.
I didn't say you should force yourself. If you don't believe anything, fine, but you can't complain when things don't turn out the way you thought. All I'm saying is that religion is just a big gamble, and you can't win if you don't try. It's as simple as that.
But just saying that you follow a religion wont get you into the heaven of that religion. For every religion you have to change your lifestyle in order to be accepted. Which is something that most people would not want to do.
you can't complain when things don't turn out the way you thought
That's just the thing. You CAN'T complain. No one can. Either (by your reckoning) you win, and you have no reason at all to complain, or you 'lose' and nothingness awaits you... there IS NO COMPLAIN. Either way.
Like it's been said before, you'd have to change your lifestyle, and THAT's the actual gamble. Wasting your life over something you're not sure of. Because you ONLY HAVE ONE life.
Pandalicker41
2008-09-23, 14:43
Why is this so hard to understand? I don't mean you should pretend to be a Hindu or something. I'm saying you should look at everything from a neutral stance, pick something you think sounds good, and follow it (isn't that how it works anyway?). Like I said, if there really is a heaven and a hell, you might as well pick something to follow, otherwise you have no chance.
Why is this so hard to understand? I don't mean you should pretend to be a Hindu or something. I'm saying you should look at everything from a neutral stance, pick something you think sounds good, and follow it (isn't that how it works anyway?). Like I said, if there really is a heaven and a hell, you might as well pick something to follow, otherwise you have no chance.
But like I said, if you just pretend to be a Hindu and don't really follow their ways then you will not get into whatever 'heaven' there is for that religion. You have to devote your entire life to it and adapt all of your morals to that religion in order to be fully accepted.
Pandalicker41
2008-09-23, 23:31
But like I said, if you just pretend to be a Hindu and don't really follow their ways then you will not get into whatever 'heaven' there is for that religion. You have to devote your entire life to it and adapt all of your morals to that religion in order to be fully accepted.
Holy shit. How many times do I have to say the same thing? That's what I mean! You obviously wouldn't pretend, because that would be pointless. If you have to fake it because you think it's a stupid idea, then you should move on to something else. Something you agree with!
Holy shit. How many times do I have to say the same thing? That's what I mean! You obviously wouldn't pretend, because that would be pointless. If you have to fake it because you think it's a stupid idea, then you should move on to something else. Something you agree with!
My bad, I misread your post. Im reatrded, I know.
CharChar
2008-09-24, 01:40
I was just Curious as to how Christians and Catholics feel about the historical fact that their religion was a combination of some Christianity, Pagan worship, and Sun God worship.
The only real connect between Jesus and a sun God is that Christians used Sol Invictus birthday (Dec. 25) because they didn't know his.
Everything else so far has ether not been proven or is just wrong.
The only real connect between Jesus and a sun God is that Christians used Sol Invictus birthday (Dec. 25) because they didn't know his.
Everything else so far has ether not been proven or is just wrong.
Jesus is a almost direct copy of hundreds of sun gods from all cultures
the religion most plagiarized was probably the cult of Mithra because of the religions prominence in ancient Rome. Whos story is as follows.
1. Mithras was born of a virgin who was given the title of "Mother of God"
2. Mithras was born on December 25.
3. Mithras was born in a cave (stable), and his birth was attended by shepherds bearing gifts.
4. Mithras was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
5. Mithras had 12 companions or disciples.
6. Mithras performed miracles.
7. Mithras' followers were baptized.
8. Mithras suffered to bring salvation to a sin-cursed humankind.
9. Mithras was buried in a tomb and rose after three days.
10. Mithras' resurrection was celebrated every year.
11. Mithras ascended into heaven after finishing his deeds.
12. Mithras' followers were promised immortality.
13. Mithras was called “the good shepherd” and identified with both the lamb and the lion.
14. Mithras was called the “way, the truth and the light,” " logos,” "word," “redeemer,” “savior” and “messiah.”
15. On the Judgment Day, Mithras would use the keys of heaven to unlock the gates of Paradise to receive the faithful. All the unbaptized living and dead would perish.
16. Mithra's sacred day was Sunday, called the “Lord’s day” because Mithraism was a sun religion. Yeshua's sacred day was changed from the Jewish Sabbath, Saturday, to match Mithras' day.
17. Mithras had his principal festival on the day that was later to become Easter for Christians.
18. Mithras' religion had a Eucharist or “Lord’s Supper,” at which Mithras said, “He who shall not eat of my body nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved.”
19. On a final day of judgment, the dead would resurrect and in a final conflict, the existing order would be destroyed and light would triumph over darkness.
The religion following Mithra was started around 1400 BC and is almost entirely a personification of the solar cycles during the year.
It isnt terribly right to say it hasnt been proven because we know that Paul plagiarized every religion he could get his hands on in order to spread Christianity, so the only thing we can really argue is which groups he stole what from.
The historical Jesus' teachings were quite simple-love each other.
Where did you find that information on Mithras? I'd definitely like to read more about that.
That information was copied and pasted from 30ce.com.
A lot of information can be found just from googling it.
A good introduction to the topic would be the first section of the movie Zeitgeist, but it ignores the fact that Jesus was based on a real person, and I am told the movie had a lot of bad information in it.
The topic someone posted titled "Jesus is Esus..." also had some information on the subject.
easeoflife22
2008-09-24, 23:31
Why is this so hard to understand? I don't mean you should pretend to be a Hindu or something. I'm saying you should look at everything from a neutral stance, pick something you think sounds good, and follow it (isn't that how it works anyway?). Like I said, if there really is a heaven and a hell, you might as well pick something to follow, otherwise you have no chance.
Unless of course, all religions are actually ritualistic servitude to the Devil. In that case, it could be the people who worship nothing, seek no rewards, and simply live a life of love, actually receive salvation. The whole thing could be a trap. The devil supported servitude, worship of himself, vanity, etc, and God gave us freedom to whatever we pleased. And the son of God, only said we needed to live a life of love. Jesus never tells us we have to pray or anything like that. So in fact, you might be doing the wrong thing and by accepting a life of servitude to God, you're actually locking yourself into service to Satan. Why would a loving God give us religions if he knew we were going to kill each other over them. God doesn't do anything, accept let us do what we think is right.
CharChar
2008-09-25, 00:56
Jesus is a almost direct copy of hundreds of sun gods from all cultures
the religion most plagiarized was probably the cult of Mithra because of the religions prominence in ancient Rome. Whos story is as follows.
1. Mithras was born of a virgin who was given the title of "Mother of God"
2. Mithras was born on December 25.
3. Mithras was born in a cave (stable), and his birth was attended by shepherds bearing gifts.
4. Mithras was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
5. Mithras had 12 companions or disciples.
6. Mithras performed miracles.
7. Mithras' followers were baptized.
8. Mithras suffered to bring salvation to a sin-cursed humankind.
9. Mithras was buried in a tomb and rose after three days.
10. Mithras' resurrection was celebrated every year.
11. Mithras ascended into heaven after finishing his deeds.
12. Mithras' followers were promised immortality.
13. Mithras was called “the good shepherd” and identified with both the lamb and the lion.
14. Mithras was called the “way, the truth and the light,” " logos,” "word," “redeemer,” “savior” and “messiah.”
15. On the Judgment Day, Mithras would use the keys of heaven to unlock the gates of Paradise to receive the faithful. All the unbaptized living and dead would perish.
16. Mithra's sacred day was Sunday, called the “Lord’s day” because Mithraism was a sun religion. Yeshua's sacred day was changed from the Jewish Sabbath, Saturday, to match Mithras' day.
17. Mithras had his principal festival on the day that was later to become Easter for Christians.
18. Mithras' religion had a Eucharist or “Lord’s Supper,” at which Mithras said, “He who shall not eat of my body nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved.”
19. On a final day of judgment, the dead would resurrect and in a final conflict, the existing order would be destroyed and light would triumph over darkness.
The religion following Mithra was started around 1400 BC and is almost entirely a personification of the solar cycles during the year.
It isnt terribly right to say it hasnt been proven because we know that Paul plagiarized every religion he could get his hands on in order to spread Christianity, so the only thing we can really argue is which groups he stole what from.
The historical Jesus' teachings were quite simple-love each other.
I think every God does number 6.
I look up some stuff and found out you were right about some of the things besides his birthday. I didn't know some of that before.
Heres a smart Christians research
http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/mithra.html
Pandalicker41
2008-09-25, 01:58
Unless of course, all religions are actually ritualistic servitude to the Devil. In that case, it could be the people who worship nothing, seek no rewards, and simply live a life of love, actually receive salvation. The whole thing could be a trap. The devil supported servitude, worship of himself, vanity, etc, and God gave us freedom to whatever we pleased. And the son of God, only said we needed to live a life of love. Jesus never tells us we have to pray or anything like that. So in fact, you might be doing the wrong thing and by accepting a life of servitude to God, you're actually locking yourself into service to Satan. Why would a loving God give us religions if he knew we were going to kill each other over them. God doesn't do anything, accept let us do what we think is right.
Well that's a whole new argument in itself. I'm just going by the basis that at least one thing is right.
An interesting theory, but you don't actually believe that do you?
I think every God does number 6.
I look up some stuff and found out you were right about some of the things besides his birthday. I didn't know some of that before.
Heres a smart Christians research
http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/mithra.html
Yeah number 6 is almost a required attribute of a god.
Interesting stuff. I will hesitate before mentioning Mithras name in that context again.
Just the same, Horus has a story that also includes being born to the virgin Isis, his birth was announced by a star in the East which 3 kings followed to adorn their savior, at age 30 he was baptized by a figure known as Anap(sp?), He had 12 disciples and performed miracles(blah blah blah), he was crucified, buried for 3 days, and was resurrected.
And according to Zeitgesit, which I am still not sure if it is accurate or not, Attis, Krishna, Dionysus, Buhda Sakia, Salivahana, Zulis, Zhule, Osiris, Orus, Odin, Crite, Zoroaster, Baal, Taut, Indra, Bali, Jao, Wittoba, Thamuz, Atys, Xalolxis, Zoar, Adid, Deva Tat, Alcides, Mikado, Beddru, Hesus(!), Eros, Bremrilla, Thor, Hil, Feta, Cadmus, Gentaut, Quexalcote, Ischy, Fohi, Tien, Adonis, Ixion, and Prometheus all loosely fit the exact same story.
Apparently it is all a personification of the sun/stars/seasons.
Sirius is the star in the east and the 3 stars in Orion's belt(also known as the 3 kings) all line up to point to the sunrise on December 25(Birth of the sun).
The virgin birth is a representation of Virgo the virgin(I dont understand this connection and if anyone has any information on it I would like to see it).
The death sequence is a reference to the days getting shorter and shorter from the summer solstice to the winter equinox(the sun appears to be dieing). On December 22 the sun appears to stop moving south entirely, and it stays here for 3 days, until December 25 when the sun moves northward.
During this time the sun is in the vicinity of the constellation "Crux" or cross.
Also Jesus' crown of thorns was a reference to the sun's corona, which is a latin word that translates to crown.
Thus the sun dies on a cross and is resurrected 3 days later. The resurrection was not celebrated until the spring equinox(easter) when the days become longer than nights.
The 12 disciples are a reference to the 12 constellations in the zodiac. Though I dont think its entirely unlikely for someone to actually have 12 disciples. From what I have learned the Zodiac has had several different numbers of constellations in it throughout cultures and history.
And like I said earlier, we know that Paul practically wrote Christian beliefs just to get followers.
Will Durant said about Paul
"Paul created a theology of which none but the vaguest warrants can be found in the words of Christ. . . . Through these interpretations Paul could neglect the actual life and sayings of Jesus, which he had not directly known. . . . Paul replaced conduct with creed as the test of virtue. It was a tragic change."
If you see anything wrong with anything I said, feel free to say it. I am interested in the truth and my ego wont be hurt if I find out I am wrong.
This thread reeks of Zeitgeist
Seriously people, come up with better reasons as to not follow a certain religion besides recycled lines from that horrible conspiracy "documentary".
This thread reeks of Zeitgeist
Seriously people, come up with better reasons as to not follow a certain religion besides recycled lines from that horrible conspiracy "documentary".
Can you show me anything that says anything I said was wrong?
Can you show me anything that says anything I said was wrong?
Um how about Zeitgiest has the worst citations EVER.... I wouldn't believe anything that movie says. Just because the creator used eerie music in the background with visual links to what he's saying doesn't make it true. Zeitgiest does what it wants to do, make people believe. But no one ever looks more into it, they just take it as fact. The movie is meant to make you think, AND NOT MEANT TO BE TAKEN AS FACT.
This man does a good review and explains what I'm trying to say better then I ever could. http://www.consider.org/News/2007/12.html
Even though I know you'll probably close it since it's hosted on a Christian website (since most Zeitgeist believers refuse to hear rebuttles), I encourage you to read all 3 parts of his review and then actually take a look at Zeitgeist's horrible citations they list, and more importantly, do your own research. Believe me, I was a Zeitgeist fan boy too until I actually took the time to look at how the movie presents itself and its information. It's just meant to get you hyped up and uses visual aids to link Astrology with Christianity, and like the review says, it ignores ALL differences between religions while only focusing on the similarities.
BrokeProphet
2008-09-29, 23:34
This man does a good review and explains what I'm trying to say better then I ever could. http://www.consider.org/News/2007/12.html.
In that site he does remind us of the commonly accepted assertion that Jesus's birthday is unkown, and the church decided to place it on the 25th to take over pagan celebrations.....what is not explained is the eerie similarities between this.....
Sirius is the star in the east and the 3 stars in Orion's belt(also known as the 3 kings) all line up to point to the sunrise on December 25(Birth of the sun).
The virgin birth is a representation of Virgo the virgin(I dont understand this connection and if anyone has any information on it I would like to see it).
The death sequence is a reference to the days getting shorter and shorter from the summer solstice to the winter equinox(the sun appears to be dieing). On December 22 the sun appears to stop moving south entirely, and it stays here for 3 days, until December 25 when the sun moves northward.
During this time the sun is in the vicinity of the constellation "Crux" or cross.
Also Jesus' crown of thorns was a reference to the sun's corona, which is a latin word that translates to crown.
Thus the sun dies on a cross and is resurrected 3 days later. The resurrection was not celebrated until the spring equinox(easter) when the days become longer than nights.
.......and the resurrection stories of Jesus and numerous other mythological demi-gods.
Otherwise, we are left to believe that the story of Jesus, and the what takes place on the solstice are just coincidence.
I am willing to believe that along with assigning the lord and savior a pagan birthday, they mingled his story, what he did, and how he died, and the reasoning behind that, with pagan tradition as well.
IN FACT, due to the similarity between the solstice, and the story of Jesus, and THE FACT that people accept and admit Christian tradition has mingled with Pagan roots, I fail to see how Zeitgeist is incorrect in telling us Jesus is a by-product of different mythologies.
That STILL seems more fitting to me than assuming the similarities between the solstice, and the life, death and resurrection of Jesus, and others, are simply coincidence.
The author of your website, nor you have engaged in any meaningful discussion about the implications of the supposed coincidence.
Thanks BrokeProphet, you just saved me some typing.
I did read all of the information in the articles, and on top of what BrokeProphet said, I like to add that yes there are definitely more differences between Christianity and the pagan mystery religions, but thats not the point. The point is that Paul took pieces of these religions to make Christianity more accessible to as many people as he could.
I have to agree with you Memorex, Zeitgeist was a TERRIBLE movie(though I have to admit I liked the voice of the narrator), but I have researched the hell out of it trying to find anything that says any of the section on Christianity is a hoax. What came across was that it disregarded the historical Jesus, some of its information on random Deities was inferred, and a lot of biblical references stuff were bad inferences and stuff taken way out of context. The movie makes a lot of bad attempts demonize Christianity but never once did i find anything that proved they lied about the life/death sequence, or the fact that Christianity borrowed heavily from Paganism.
The majority of the screaming is about the 9/11 section, which is common of EVERY 9/11 conspiracy movie.
So yes, admitidly, Zeitgeist is a horrible citation, but I cited it simply for being the most concise presentation of the comparison between Jesus and astrology that I have seen. Also hence why I asked specifically if anything i said was wrong, not if anything from Zeitgeist was wrong.
By the way, if anyone better versed in the subject can explain to me how the virgin birth is a reference to Virgo the virgin, I would greatly appreciate it. Aside from the obvious that Virgo is the virgin, I just cannot see any link between December 25 and Virgo. I also highly doubt the Nordic people ever claimed their sun god was born in Bethlehem.
If anyone else has anything really interesting on the subject please post it. I think that we are all here to learn.