Hey Arms, I has a question

[nshanin]

When Chopra says "You don't have to believe in God to experience Him", is this just a clever way of saying that God exists whether you believe in him or not, or just that God can be experienced without a belief in the mystical? Or am I totally of the mark here?

[ArmsMerchant]

Actually, I would say both. But I think everyone has had some sort of experience of God, but they denied the source.

Chalked it up to luck, coincidence, randomness or something else.

[nshanin]

Actually, I would say both. But I think everyone has had some sort of experience of God, but they denied the source.

Chalked it up to luck, coincidence, randomness or something else.

So his (and thus I assume your) belief is that God intervenes in daily human affairs that would otherwise be attributed to luck or coincidence?

[HandOfZek]

So his (and thus I assume your) belief is that God intervenes in daily human affairs that would otherwise be attributed to luck or coincidence?

I'm always thanking God when I roll 6's in boardgames.

[ArmsMerchant]

So his (and thus I assume your) belief is that God intervenes in daily human affairs that would otherwise be attributed to luck or coincidence?

Neither Chopra nor I subscribe to that belief, which assumes that God somehow stands apart from creation.

We all create our own reality, thus manifesting two of my favorite sayings of Jesus: "The kingdom of God is within you." And "All these things I have done, ye shall do also--all these and more."

[BrokeProphet]

Actually, I would say both. But I think everyone has had some sort of experience of God, but they denied the source.

Both God and a soul should be self-evident.

Should not have to buy 30 Chopra books to figure it out.

---------

If we all create our own reality and if we can perform magical feats at the highest levels of consciousness...would you use your magic to make me win the lotto...when you touch on the 7th level as you have hinted?

I would such Chopra's dick if that happened. I would be a follower of your philosophy till the day I die. I would become the next Deepak Chopra in a week, such as my devotion would be.

[ArmsMerchant]

---------

If we all create our own reality and if we can perform magical feats at the highest levels of consciousness...would you use your magic to make me win the lotto...when you touch on the 7th level as you have hinted?

I would such Chopra's dick if that happened. I would be a follower of your philosophy till the day I die. I would become the next Deepak Chopra in a week, such as my devotion would be.

Are you at all serious, or you just trying to be cute ?

The serious answer is, in the first place, at the seventh level one has transcended material desires. Winning a lottery in no way fulfills any soul's agenda. In reality, it frequently ruins one's life. You would know this if you paid attention to the news.

Personally, I have largely renounced material wealth. When I WAS rich, I was much less happy and fulfilled than I am now. I was also dying from a drug habit that came as a direct result fo my health care/HMO coverage. Now I have no health insurance at all, and have never been healthier.

[Rizzo in a box]

Belief stems from language, language is completely unable to describe the incomprehensible reality of what is.

[BrokeProphet]

Are you at all serious, or you just trying to be cute ?

The serious answer is, in the first place, at the seventh level one has transcended material desires. Winning a lottery in no way fulfills any soul's agenda. In reality, it frequently ruins one's life. You would know this if you paid attention to the news.

Personally, I have largely renounced material wealth. When I WAS rich, I was much less happy and fulfilled than I am now. I was also dying from a drug habit that came as a direct result fo my health care/HMO coverage. Now I have no health insurance at all, and have never been healthier.

My largest questions are, IF the sprititually evolved can perform miracles and magic......

Why is it we are unable to study magic and miracles?

Why is there a skeptic left?

Why is this magic use largely a secret to the general public?

Wouldn't proving this, bring more people into the fold, and bring about a utopian society filled with the enlightened.

Like I said, prove this magic, and I will sign up tommorrow. Not so that I can learn magic, but b/c I will KNOW that enlightenment is possible and it works.

------

So what has personally worked for you and your happiness, will work for everyone?
Is happiness this objective?

------

I present this:

There exist people in the world with less materialistic lives than you have. Eithopians by and large.

Why are these people not enlightened?

Why are they not enlightened enough to use magic, miracles etc. and turn fish and bread into enough food to feed their villages?

Where are the magic miracle summoning Shamans of the world? These people need them.

Do they need to read the D.C. books? Should we send them Deepak Chopra books instead of vaccines, bibles, and food, so they can realized how blessed they are having nothing? Accept it, transcend it, and wield magic?

[ArmsMerchant]

So little time, so many misconceptions. . . . -

"My largest questions are, IF the spritually evolved can perform miracles and magic......

"Why is it we are unable to study magic and miracles?"
Who says we are? I study these things, as do many others. Is it my responsibility to correct your ignorance?

"Why is there a skeptic left?"
For one thing, skeptics have their minds made up and do not wish to be confused with facts. Many skeptics have so much ego invested in their skepticism, it would be emotionally devastating for them to become enlightened.

For another, the world is an illusion, but it is a damned convincing one. The superstition of materism and the illusion of separateness are supported by most of society, the government, advertising, entertainment and the mass media, and are most seductive. All of this is ego-driven, and most people are interested in strengthening thei ego, not transcending it.

"Why is this magic use largely a secret to the general public?"

It isn't a secret. People just don't pay attention, or discount what they do hear of.

"Wouldn't proving this, bring more people into the fold, and bring about a utopian society filled with the enlightened."

More and deeper misconceptions, For one thing, there is no "fold." There are many pople following different paths, but we are all on the general road to sainthood. No path is better than any oher, but some paths are less onerous. "Flock" implies "shepherd"-- and the day of single-source gurus is over.

There is another rather key factor which you seem to voerlook. Jesus said "I come not to bring peace, but a aword." Now society has a very good reason for holding back spiritual evolution, and that is because society and civilization as we know it depends on people generally being dumb, fat, and fear-ridden.

True, if more people shared my ideas, there would be no more war, rape, drunk driving and a host of other social ills--but many businesses would fail, the stock market would collapse, and we would experience an economic depression that would make the Great Depression look like a walk in the park. Hardly "Utopia."

[nshanin]

Neither Chopra nor I subscribe to that belief, which assumes that God somehow stands apart from creation.

We all create our own reality, thus manifesting two of my favorite sayings of Jesus: "The kingdom of God is within you." And "All these things I have done, ye shall do also--all these and more."

Oh, okay. Thanks for clarifying.

[BrokeProphet]

So little time, so many misconceptions. . . . -

"My largest questions are, IF the sprititually evolved can perform miracles and magic......

"Why is it we are unable to study magic and miracles?"
Who says we are? I study these things, as do many others. Is it my responsibility to correct your ignorance?."

I am glad scientists don't take the "Is it my responsibility to correct your ignorance?" point of view.

I am not ignorant of magic and miracles. Everything I have studied about them suggest these things to be impossible. How am I the ignorant one?

You study these things, but why isn't science studying these things, more, and why isn't there any proof of the existence of magic and miracles? If there was ANYTHING to go on here, scientifically, scientists would murder each other to be the first one to discover magic.

IF there were ANYTHING real to go on that is.

"Why is there a skeptic left?"
For one thing, skeptics have their minds made up and do not wish to be confused with facts. Many skeptics have so much ego invested in their skepticism, it would be emotionally devastating for them to become enlightened.

As a skeptic I personally love facts, and do not find them confusing. Tell you what...PRESENT SOME FACTS...and I will try to keep from being confused by them.

Let me let you in on a little secret. I would LOVE to discover something magical in the world. ANYTHING. I would LOVE to not be a skeptic. Who gives a fuck about ego when we are talking miracles and magic.

If it is ever proven, I will be the first to gladly take that emotionally devastating blow to my fragile and completely in control of everything I say and do ego.

*on a side note, I believe the ego can never be fully ignored. Seems you paint anyone who requires evidence as being a slave to their ego or less evolved spirtually than you. How does that make your ego feel knowing how special, enlightened, and in control of your ego you are?

"For another, the world is an illusion, but it is a damned convincing one. The superstition of materism and the illusion of separateness are supported by most of society, the government, advertising, entertainment and the mass media, and are most seductive. All of this is ego-driven, and most people are interested in strengthening thei ego, not transcending it.

Materialism is not a superstition. Belief in magic is.

Personally, I believe magical power and miracles are more seductive than ANYTHING MATERIAL IN THE WORLD.

I would rather have some magical power than a million dollars. I think most people would.

""Why is this magic use largely a secret to the general public?"

It isn't a secret. People just don't pay attention, or discount what they do hear of.

Tell me, do your own magical powers manisfest anything physical a person can pay attention to? Any motes of light, dust, sounds, etc. anything that can be picked up by the senses in which someone can choose to ignore or pay attention to?

If not...then most people will likely not take someones word for it that they have magical powers. So discounting it, is perfectly understandable, isn't it?

If it does...tell all magic wielding people you know to manifest these powers daily and in public so the masses will believe. Basically tell them not to keep it a secret...

[-ScreamingElectron-]

I have always loved BrokeProphet :D

For the most part... A lot of what you say, ArmsMerchant, seems like bullshit :O

But, since I seek understanding, links or topics to search on to try to understand all the gibberish would be awesome! I seek knowledge more than salvation or a higher plane of exsistance. I think Jesus, or whoever, had some kick ass ideas and statements. I think the majority of his followers are ass hats that blindly follow a handful of old guys with sticks and giant hats.

Thanks ;)

[ArmsMerchant]

For the most part... A lot of what you say, ArmsMerchant, seems like bullshit :O

Thanks ;)

As Sheakespeare wrote "Seems?. . . .I know not seems." Thing is, trying to speak of the unspeakable, and put the infinite into words is a hard damn row to hoe. You think MY stuff sounds like BS--try reading some St Augustine, or St. John of the Cross, or St Teresa, or some of the Sufi masters or poets, or the Gospel of Thomas or Hermetic magick, yadda yadda yadda. Much of this material seems at first blush, counter-intuitive.

It is only through understanding and application that we begin to realize what is meant by the Vedic "you are not in the world; the world is in you," for instance.

[BrokeProphet]

I have always loved BrokeProphet :D

Thanks.

I had to re-read my post, after I read this compliment.

It was a damn good post. I wasn't crude or disrespectful, or at least tried, ...and yet, a do not even get the respect of a direct response.

[nshanin]

I had to re-read my post, after I read this compliment.

Heh, I do this each time I get an e-conpliment :D.

But in all seriousness BP, rather than asking Arms to prove miracles to you, you should go out in search of them yourself.

...and respond to my post in your other thread in this forum. :mad:

[ArmsMerchant]

It was a damn good post. I wasn't crude or disrespectful, or at least tried, ...and yet, a do not even get the respect of a direct response.

Oh please. Are you so arrogant, so self-centered you think I have nothing more important to do than reply to every fucking one of your sniping, insulting, left-brained dominated fucking comments? I have stated over and over and OVER again things like why materialism is a superstition and so on and so forth. I cannot remove the scales from your eyes or open your mind.

I cannot transcend your own ego for you--that is your job.

I recount my experiences as clearly and fully and honestly as I can--how is that my fault if you or anyone else fails to grasp the point!

I bend over backwards at times, trying to ram my point through the thick fog of your fucking willful incomprehension, and for what? And YOU have the chutzpah to speak about lack of respect? HOW FUCKING DARE YOU !

Verily is it written, cast ye not your pearls before swine.

[Hexadecimal]

My largest questions are, IF the sprititually evolved can perform miracles and magic......

Why is it we are unable to study magic and miracles?

Why is there a skeptic left?

Why is this magic use largely a secret to the general public?

Wouldn't proving this, bring more people into the fold, and bring about a utopian society filled with the enlightened.

Like I said, prove this magic, and I will sign up tommorrow. Not so that I can learn magic, but b/c I will KNOW that enlightenment is possible and it works.

------

So what has personally worked for you and your happiness, will work for everyone?
Is happiness this objective?

------

I present this:

There exist people in the world with less materialistic lives than you have. Eithopians by and large.

Why are these people not enlightened?

Why are they not enlightened enough to use magic, miracles etc. and turn fish and bread into enough food to feed their villages?

Where are the magic miracle summoning Shamans of the world? These people need them.

Do they need to read the D.C. books? Should we send them Deepak Chopra books instead of vaccines, bibles, and food, so they can realized how blessed they are having nothing? Accept it, transcend it, and wield magic?

BP. I'm going to say this: I've been more than a prick to you. For that, I was wrong. I can tell by the questions you pose that you're not a bad guy...you're not full of unjustified rage or any nonsense like that. You really haven't experienced the consciousness of God's presence. There's nothing wrong with that whatsoever. I think you really would believe and dedicate your self to God had you experienced any one of the experiences I've shared with these boards....hell, you'd probably dedicate yourself to God if I could even provide evidence of these experiences. You know though, there's something cool in the Bible, that actually deals with situations as such: Man judges by the outwardly appearance, but the Spirit judges what is in the heart.

I don't think you're at all a lost soul. In your heart, you would seek enlightenment and God's companionship if you had even the slightest reason to believe either to exist. That's all the better than those who know both enlightenment and God to exist yet in their hearts seek to run away so they can pursue the flesh. You are better than I; for I have met God, and I have experienced phases of enlightenment...and I still run away so that I can smoke pot, sleep with easy women, and treat others less than I would want for my self. I am guilty of having judged you on your lack of faith...how much greater is my own lacking? How undeserving am I of judging you?

I suppose this is an apology; I cannot gaurantee it will never happen again, but I will try to seek a better understanding of the nonbelievers in the future and do what I can to refrain from all judgment of their quality of being.

[BrokeProphet]

Oh please. Are you so arrogant, so self-centered you think I have nothing more important to do than reply to every fucking one of your sniping, insulting, left-brained dominated fucking comments? I have stated over and over and OVER again things like why materialism is a superstition and so on and so forth. I cannot remove the scales from your eyes or open your mind.

I cannot transcend your own ego for you--that is your job.

I recount my experiences as clearly and fully and honestly as I can--how is that my fault if you or anyone else fails to grasp the point!

I bend over backwards at times, trying to ram my point through the thick fog of your fucking willful incomprehension, and for what? And YOU have the chutzpah to speak about lack of respect? HOW FUCKING DARE YOU !

Verily is it written, cast ye not your pearls before swine.

Telling me I am incapable of understanding it, when I posted intelligent common sense simple questions, you have yet to even begin answering, is a bit foolish don't you think?

I would also like to point out that I was a deal more respectful to you in my post than you were in your reply. Curious question: Where does this obvious hypocrisy fit into your quest for enlightenment?

I don't want to be so audacious as to suggest your disrespectful curse filled rant was a product of your underevolved ego, but why did you fill the need to do that? Was it something inside you that got angry when I laid forth excellent questions that seemed to deflate your fanciful bluster? Is that egoism and thus a bit more hypocrisy?

Honestly wondering how you justify these things in your quest for enlightenment.

Finally, I would still like some answers to my excellent questions, beyond describing materialism as a superstition (that does not even begin answering a single one of my myraid of simple questions at all). As for your materialism being a superstition...please explain this without changing the definitions of either words......THAT would be some magic and nothing short of a miracle.

And I will again leave you with this, one of my more convincing of arguments as to why materialism does not stand in the way of people wielding magic (that you never responded to):

There exist people in the world with less materialistic lives than you have. Eithopians by and large.

Why are these people not enlightened?

Why are they not enlightened enough to use magic, miracles etc. and turn fish and bread into enough food to feed their villages?

Do they need to read the D.C. books? Should we send them Deepak Chopra books instead of vaccines, bibles, and food, so they can realized how blessed they are having nothing? Accept it, transcend it, and wield magic? Use this magic to survive.

Feel free to switch out Deepak Chopra with Krishna or whatever other overpriced self help book with a dash of mysticism you happen to be reading and regurgitating onto the thread at the moment. (only outright insulting thing I said my whole post, you should be proud of me:)).

[Rizzo in a box]

Ethiopians don't need DC when they have Jenkem.

[nshanin]

Ethiopians don't need DC when they have Jenkem.

Do you think psychoactives are the key to enlightenment, rizzo?

[BrokeProphet]

Why couldn't they be?

[nshanin]

Why couldn't they be?

I never expressed an opinion either way. I want to know what Rizzo thinks. Most psychedelic users claim they are, but Rizzo seems to have taken psychoactives to a different extent; his opinions on such topics are interesting.

[BrokeProphet]

Bumpity

[Rizzo in a box]

I never expressed an opinion either way. I want to know what Rizzo thinks. Most psychedelic users claim they are, but Rizzo seems to have taken psychoactives to a different extent; his opinions on such topics are interesting.

Enlightenment is mostly a matter of energy. It doesn't matter how many drugs you take if you can't stop yr internal chatter. The constant obsession with "me, me, me" drains humanity of its magic and ability to perceive beyond the mundane.

Personally, I can use psychoactives as a huge boost to reach higher levels of awareness of even the highest levels - but I don't need to. I tend to just do drugs for fun, but also to push the limits of what can be experienced.

For people with no balance and sobriety, drugs will only lead to madness and stupidity. I've seen it happen countless times. Acid casualties, junkies, E-tards...they all went looking for something, thought they found it, and fell into the abyss.