Losing the faith...

[Elephantitis Man]

Hmm...I don't really know where to begin.

I am a Christian, quickly losing faith in Christianity. Not to say there there isn't a 'deity' (or isn't one), but I'm starting to consider that my religion holds no water.

The more I think about the concept of the Christian God, contradictions of the doctrines, the validity of the Bible, the more I doubt. One can't disagree that there is a very good argument, not just against the Christian religion, but against the concept of 'blind faith' itself (which Christianity is essentially founded upon).

I don't know what to do. I don't know if anyone else here has experienced something like this before, but it almost tears a guy apart in slowly discovering he has misled himself his entire life. Even now, my mind screams "See, you dope. I told you; you can't justify a meaning in the universe because it 'feels good' to do so. Because believing in a God makes you 'feel complete' doesn't necessarily mean one has to exist."

I just...don't know what to believe, what to think anymore. http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

Does anyone have any advice?

[This message has been edited by Elephantitis Man (edited 03-01-2006).]

[hyroglyphx]

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

Hmm...I don't really know where to begin.

I am a Christian, quickly losing faith in Christianity. Not to say there there isn't a 'deity' (or isn't one), but I'm starting to consider that my religion holds no water.

The more I think about the concept of the Christian God, contradictions of the doctrines, the validity of the Bible, the more I doubt. One can't disagree that there is a very good argument, not just against the Christian religion, but against the concept of 'blind faith' itself (which Christianity is essentially founded upon).

I don't know what to do. I don't know if anyone else here has experienced something like this before, but it almost tears a guy apart in slowly discovering he has misled himself his entire life. Even now, my mind screams "See, you dope. I told you; you can't justify a meaning in the universe because it 'feels good' to do so. Because believing in a God makes you 'feel complete' doesn't necessarily mean one has to exist."

I just...don't know what to believe, what to think anymore. http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

Does anyone have any advice?



Well, I certainly applaude your honesty. That was very forthcoming. I disagree with alot of your reasons for abandoning the faith, but I'm not you. I can say the opposite of myself. I tried to find every conceivable reason not to believe in God. The very notion of it repulsed me. And for me, it was quite the opposite. I said in my heart, "You dope, you've thought of all the reasons to avoid the inevitable... There is a God and no matter how much you try to deny it, will not nullify its timeless truth."

What stumbles you? Perhaps we can start an open dialogue.

[Elephantitis Man]

It's not just one thing that stumbles me, it's many things.

Take the concept of 'God' for example. There's the endless debate of "If God is omnipotent, He cannot be all-knowing. Being all-knowing, He would know the definite future and be unable to change it, therefore not being omnipotent. So God either knows all and is powerless to stop it, or doesn't know all because He has the ability to change what it to come."

To take things a step further, why did God create us?

Supposedly, God is 'perfect'. Would I be correct in assuming a 'perfect' being lacks nothing (anything that lacks something is imperfect)? Therefore, God cannot be lonely. He cannot want companionship, because to want something is admittance that one lacks it.

Furthermore, we argue that "we are so complex, we must have been created." What about God. He is even more complex than us, yet noone created Him. So is God proof that a complex being can exist without being created? Does that mean that...we, being complex beings ourselves, are also capable of existing without a 'creator'?

All logic surrounding God and any explanation of God just goes around in cirlces.

To top it off, believers have a bias for their beliefs. I have even attempted to refute and discard the arguments above. There's the age-old answer "God is beyond our comprehension" and the classic "God works in mysterious ways".

But isn't religion supposed to answer the 'mysteries' surrounding life? All it does is answer mysteries with...more mysteries. http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

[Snoopy]

Just live a fun life without bothering with the banal questions of the weak minded. People think asking themselves the "when" "how" and "why" questions makes them smart. And people answering the "when "how" and "why" questions think they're even smarter.

It really matters fuck all. The world does not work that way. Let me give you an example. There are worthless weenies who don't do anything but debate on social and political issues. They hold fuck knows how many degrees, and think they're the shit. They've wasted their pathetic lives on their pathetic ideologies. Do they make a difference? No, the fucking don't.

I often meet political figures in classy clubs and high roller strip clubs and the likes. They don't give a fuck about what moms think about video games or what Christians think about abortion. They make up their minds on a whim of alcohol, drugs and high priced hookers.

It's the way our world turns around. The difference is, while you assholes are sitting here "debating" good from bad, and right from wrong, I'm rolling on the dance train and the Champagne in the VIP is free cause some rich political weenie or some celebrity doesn't know what to do with their money.

So, when you're in your teens, you'll do stupid shit like ask yourself questions like "why". Before you know it, you're a full blown emo cunt. However, you'll grow out of that, get a job, a fine ass bitch and live it up. Some people however, don't grow out of it, and waste their lives being worthless sacks of shit.

[jsaxton14]

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

Does anyone have any advice?

Perform an independent search for truth. Don't accept values simply because someone/some book says so.

Regarding the Bible, this link should shatter whatever faith you still have: http://www.americanhumanist.org/humanism/thebible.html

[Mellow_Fellow]

Life is much more complicated and strange than either you or me can understand...

a book that can be read and understood by intelligent 7 year olds does not contain the mysteries of the universe.

But christianity ensured my existence, and probably made me who i am now, so i am very grateful that the world is not a "perfect" place!

[SurahAhriman]

quote:Originally posted by jsaxton14:

Perform an independent search for truth. Don't accept values simply because someone/some book says so.

Regarding the Bible, this link should shatter whatever faith you still have: http://www .americanh umanist.org/humanism/thebible.html (http: //www.amer icanhumani st.org/hum anism/theb ible.html)



Good link.

[xtreem5150ahm]

quote:Originally posted by jsaxton14:

Perform an independent search for truth. Don't accept values simply because someone/some book says so.

Regarding the Bible, this link should shatter whatever faith you still have: http://www .americanh umanist.org/humanism/thebible.html (http: //www.amer icanhumani st.org/hum anism/theb ible.html)

Interesting...

First, you give the advice not to except values from a "book" or what other people say...

But then turn around and again give advice to follow a link to give advice from someone else!?

[xtreem5150ahm]

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

There are worthless weenies who don't do anything but debate on social and political issues.

And what is your definintion of 'worth'?

quote:They've wasted their pathetic lives on their pathetic ideologies.

While your at it, what have you wasted your "pathetic life" on?

Just remember, one man's treasure is another's junk.

quote:I often meet political figures in classy clubs and high roller strip clubs and the likes.

That statement screams, "bullshit".

Bullshit on so many levels.. first and foremost, i find it hard to believe that you find your way outta TOTSE-land.

and ummm, not saying that "high roller strip clubs" dont exist, but i've been to a few strip clubs in my younger years, and i've seen only one that was "classy", but it was far from "high roller"... (dont know if it still exists.. that was about 21 years ago, but it was the Lollipop Lounge in Waikiki, Oahu.)

Lastly, i know it is not impossible that you may have met a political figure or two... and maybe even in a club, but i'm highly skeptical that it was anyone higher than local level... you know, bodyguards "and the like".

quote:So, when you're in your teens, you'll do stupid shit like ask yourself questions like "why".

and you've been out of your teens for what, 2 years, or is it 3. Wow, such life experience.

quote:waste their lives being worthless sacks of shit.

Again, your idea of 'waste' and 'worth'?

[ohhi]

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

Hmm...I don't really know where to begin.

I am a Christian, quickly losing faith in Christianity. Not to say there there isn't a 'deity' (or isn't one), but I'm starting to consider that my religion holds no water.

The more I think about the concept of the Christian God, contradictions of the doctrines, the validity of the Bible, the more I doubt. One can't disagree that there is a very good argument, not just against the Christian religion, but against the concept of 'blind faith' itself (which Christianity is essentially founded upon).

I don't know what to do. I don't know if anyone else here has experienced something like this before, but it almost tears a guy apart in slowly discovering he has misled himself his entire life. Even now, my mind screams "See, you dope. I told you; you can't justify a meaning in the universe because it 'feels good' to do so. Because believing in a God makes you 'feel complete' doesn't necessarily mean one has to exist."

I just...don't know what to believe, what to think anymore. http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

Does anyone have any advice?





I say fuck religion man. It is causing so much pain in my life right now that I would honnestly would rather go to "hell". According to statistics people who do not believe or who are not retarded about it have a much better life as opposed to believers. I guess it is something you have to decide for yourself and not follow anyone. For me - I think it's better without religion.

[ohhi]

P.S. Did you by any chance listen to this one?

http://exchristian.net/dan_jason.mp3

[truckfixr]

When it gets right down to it, what you believe depends solely on you. Sort through the evidence (or lack therof) and form your own conclusions. People may try to convince you to believe/disbelieve. The best you can do is to be honest with yourself.

[jsaxton14]

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

Interesting...

First, you give the advice not to except values from a "book" or what other people say...

But then turn around and again give advice to follow a link to give advice from someone else!?

Religious people generally claim their holy texts are inerrant and are absolutely true. They claim to be an absolute source of authority. I was providing him with a source of information -- it did not claim to be an absolute authority.

That is why I have no problem with the provided link, yet still have many problems with religions/holy texts.

[Elephantitis Man]

quote:Originally posted by ohhi:

P.S. Did you by any chance listen to this one? http://exchristian.net/dan_jason.mp3

Yeah, that was actually one of the first swaying points for me. Even as a Christian, I have(had) doubt, asking myself "What if this is all wrong?" But like I said, the theology can be torn apart, the writings contradict themselves in several ways.

To be honest, I liked the idea of a 'loving God' and an 'eternity in heaven'.

I had accepted the fact that there was no evidence for any of it, but I thought it made sense and was just lacking the hard proof to make that sense evident to everyone.

But when it doesn't make sense, when the argument becomes so irrational that no degree of 'interpretation' or 'context' can make it rational, I cannot believe in that.

Listening to that interview and a few others, and reading up on various similar arguments, helped me realize how irrational my beliefs were.

[xtreem5150ahm]

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

Originally posted by ohhi:

P.S. Did you by any chance listen to this one? http://exchristian.net/dan_jason.mp3

Yeah, that was actually one of the first swaying points for me. Even as a Christian, I have(had) doubt, asking myself "What if this is all wrong?" But like I said, the theology can be torn apart, the writings contradict themselves in several ways.

To be honest, I liked the idea of a 'loving God' and an 'eternity in heaven'.

I had accepted the fact that there was no evidence for any of it, but I thought it made sense and was just lacking the hard proof to make that sense evident to everyone.

But when it doesn't make sense, when the argument becomes so irrational that no degree of 'interpretation' or 'context' can make it rational, I cannot believe in that.

Listening to that interview and a few others, and reading up on various similar arguments, helped me realize how irrational my beliefs were.

have you visited t-web? http://www.theologyweb.com/

The site is similar to this one, only more.

Ask a few questions there. Some of the areas are only for athiests to post, some only for theists, and others for anyone. If you want some very intelligent arguements from both sides, check it out.

Johnny

[ohhi]

You must be theist...

[xtreem5150ahm]

quote:Originally posted by ohhi:

You must be theist...

oh, its much worse than that!!!

I believe in the Triune God. And that He Created, in six literal days... about 6,000 years ago.

Theistic evolution is a compromise, placing man's word above God's... in other words, Theistic evolution is the exact same thing as atheistic evolution. There is NO gap in Genesis, to allow for millions and billions of years.

I have more respect for atheists than agnostics.. atleast atheists are taking a stand.

And atheism is a belief that there is no God. Soft atheism is just a way of being an agnostic, but pretending to take a stand.

I believe in a literal, world wide flood. And a literal Noah (yes, and that Ark also).

I believe that death (both physical and spiritual) entered into the world through Adam and Eve's Original Sin (that would be the disobiedience of God's command to not eat from the tree... it was not a metaphore for sex, as some have claimed).

I believe in the historicity of Jesus. That He is completely God AND completely man. That He died to atone for all Sin, but in order for us to receive this gift of Grace, all we have to do is "confess our sins" and trust that our sins are forgiven. (I John 1:9).

And i believe that Hell is real, and it is reserved for those, who in the end, still deny God or rebelled, unrepentent against against Him.

And i also believe that my spelling sucks.

[Elephantitis Man]

^...are you serious?

I have to ask (because this is one thing that really boggled my mind):

Matthew, Chapter 1, lists 26 generations between Joseph and King David. Luke, Chapter 3:23-38, records 41 generations between Joseph and David. Also, a majority of the names are different between David all the way down to Jacob (Joseph's father).

How do you explain this?

Some fundamentalists stated that Matthew is listing Joseph's family line, while the one listed in Luke is that of Mary's. But think for a second...there is a 15 generation difference between the lines! Assuming Mary was the younger between Joseph and her (because she was percieved a young virgin woman), that would mean Joseph was the equivelant of her great-great-great-great-great-great-great-

great-great-great-great-great-great-

grandfather!!!

I've given the scripture, count the names, do the math. It is impossible.

Furthermore, Jesus stated in Matthew 12:40, "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

Mark 15:45 states that Jesus was placed in the tomb on the afternoon of Preperation Day (the day before the Sabbath). The Jewish Sabbath began sundown on Friday and lasted until sundown on Saturday, meaning that a body must be buried before sundown on Preperation Day, lest it be left out during Sabbath (because you cannot bury the dead on a the Sabbath). So He entered the tomb Friday.

Fast forward to Mark 16:9 and it says "When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week". Sabbath day is Saturday. First day of the week is Sunday.

So He was in the tomb Friday night, Saturday night, but not Sunday night!

He said specifically three nights and yet only stayed in the grave for two!

There are only 2 possible conclusions to draw from this:

1) The Bible is false, and Jesus was really dead for 3 nights. or

2) The Bible is true and Jesus failed to fulfill His own prophecy.

If you don't believe it, read the bloody scripture for yourself. No tricks. No 'shady interpretations' or anything out of context. Blanket statements that create a mass contradiction.

[jsaxton14]

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

^...are you serious?

I have to ask (because this is one thing that really boggled my mind):

Matthew, Chapter 1, lists 26 generations between Joseph and King David. Luke, Chapter 3:23-38, records 41 generations between Joseph and David. Also, a majority of the names are different between David all the way down to Jacob (Joseph's father).

How do you explain this?

Some fundamentalists stated that Matthew is listing Joseph's family line, while the one listed in Luke is that of Mary's. But think for a second...there is a 15 generation difference between the lines! Assuming Mary was the younger between Joseph and her (because she was percieved a young virgin woman), that would mean Joseph was the equivelant of her great-great-great-great-great-great-great-

great-great-great-great-great-great-

grandfather!!!

I've given the scripture, count the names, do the math. It is impossible.

Any contradiction/irrationality in the geneologies of jesus can easily be resolved by simply pointing out that you don't understand 1st century Jewish geneology (not that the accuser does, either). However, there are a plethora of other biblical contradictions to expose, if that's your burden of proof.

The step from christian to non-christian is an enormous one. Congratulations!

[Elephantitis Man]

quote:Originally posted by jsaxton14:

Any contradiction/irrationality in the geneologies of jesus can easily be resolved by simply pointing out that you don't understand 1st century Jewish geneology (not that the accuser does, either).

They actually argue this?! "Understand 1st century Jewish geneology"?! It specifically states who was the son of who, who was the son of who, and so on...

You cannot get any more specific or literal than the list provided in either gospel.

[jsaxton14]

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

Originally posted by jsaxton14:

Any contradiction/irrationality in the geneologies of jesus can easily be resolved by simply pointing out that you don't understand 1st century Jewish geneology (not that the accuser does, either).

They actually argue this?! "Understand 1st century Jewish geneology"?! It specifically states who was the son of who, who was the son of who, and so on...

You cannot get any more specific or literal than the list provided in either gospel.



Despite the fact that they were divinely inspired, they were missing data for a few generations, so they just skipped them. A perfectly common practice in first century Judea.

They did some other fucked up shit (or so some crazy CSci grad student told me), but it's 2:30AM here, so I can't remember them off the top of my head. I'm going to bed.

[elfstone]

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

Hmm...I don't really know where to begin.

I am a Christian, quickly losing faith in Christianity. Not to say there there isn't a 'deity' (or isn't one), but I'm starting to consider that my religion holds no water.

The more I think about the concept of the Christian God, contradictions of the doctrines, the validity of the Bible, the more I doubt. One can't disagree that there is a very good argument, not just against the Christian religion, but against the concept of 'blind faith' itself (which Christianity is essentially founded upon).

I don't know what to do. I don't know if anyone else here has experienced something like this before, but it almost tears a guy apart in slowly discovering he has misled himself his entire life. Even now, my mind screams "See, you dope. I told you; you can't justify a meaning in the universe because it 'feels good' to do so. Because believing in a God makes you 'feel complete' doesn't necessarily mean one has to exist."

I just...don't know what to believe, what to think anymore. http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

Does anyone have any advice?



First of all, it's very brave to admit something like "I've been misled my entire life". Take credit for it, especially in the face of some other posters who despite every evidence thrown at them hold at their faith with a mindless stubborness.

Secondly, losing faith in religion is not all that important. Just losing faith in the concept of the afterlife just gives you more interest in dealing with this life, and when it comes to this life there are alternatives to religion, that are even overlapping with it-philosophy. You don't even have to abandon the bible completely; Jesus was indeed a charismatic philosopher, whether he existed or performed miracles or not.

In the end, it feels a lot better to know that your purpose lies here on this earth and it is not disconnected from everyone you know. By not seeking answers in the supernatural, you are more likely to find the truth. It's better to live in reality.

[TerminatorVinitiatoR]

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

Just live a fun life without bothering with the banal questions of the weak minded. People think asking themselves the "when" "how" and "why" questions makes them smart. And people answering the "when "how" and "why" questions think they're even smarter.

It really matters fuck all. The world does not work that way. Let me give you an example. There are worthless weenies who don't do anything but debate on social and political issues. They hold fuck knows how many degrees, and think they're the shit. They've wasted their pathetic lives on their pathetic ideologies. Do they make a difference? No, the fucking don't.

I often meet political figures in classy clubs and high roller strip clubs and the likes. They don't give a fuck about what moms think about video games or what Christians think about abortion. They make up their minds on a whim of alcohol, drugs and high priced hookers.

It's the way our world turns around. The difference is, while you assholes are sitting here "debating" good from bad, and right from wrong, I'm rolling on the dance train and the Champagne in the VIP is free cause some rich political weenie or some celebrity doesn't know what to do with their money.

So, when you're in your teens, you'll do stupid shit like ask yourself questions like "why". Before you know it, you're a full blown emo cunt. However, you'll grow out of that, get a job, a fine ass bitch and live it up. Some people however, don't grow out of it, and waste their lives being worthless sacks of shit.

i can't believe more people didn't take the chance to take the piss out of this!

1. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA

2. "People think asking themselves the "when" "how" and "why" questions makes them smart. And people answering the "when "how" and "why" questions think they're even smarter." and so you must be even smarter than them because; "I'm rolling on the dance train and the Champagne in the VIP is free cause some rich political weenie or some celebrity doesn't know what to do with their money"

wow

wow

so your so high and mighty in your world of high priced hookers and VIP rooms and "political weinies" and you take the time out to come on totse and actually give us your advice for free? how generous of you high and mighty high roller!

i've noticed this in alot of your posts, you slip in the little references to VIP lounges, "moet" and high class hookers in your posts, it's like you want people to fucken notice you or something!!! truth is shut the fuck up no one fucking cares! and anyway you probably found yourself in some club by accident on one occasion! you fucking walter mitty fantasist!

you think you've moved on, to some higher plane of existence or something!!! woohooo! in reality all you've become is a grade A PONCE!

[Rust]

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

oh, its much worse than that!!!

Indeed! You forgot to add that you believe in a that although allegedly 'omnibenevolent', still deliberately sends people to burn in hell for all eternity, when he has absolutely no need to do so. You were right, that is much worse.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 03-02-2006).]

[TerminatorVinitiatoR]

wait? you believe in the literal noah?!?

i mean obviously no science is ever going to sway you in your dogmatic beliefs, but how exactly do you explain how polar bears get to the middle east? and then how does the ark fit a pair each of all the animals in the world into it? and what about all the worms and bacteria? would they not be accidently breathed in by say...one of the giraffes and then one of the giraffes dying and there being only one giraffe left in the world unable to continue the species?

[xtreem5150ahm]

quote:Originally posted by TerminatorVinitiatoR:

wait? you believe in the literal noah?!?

i mean obviously no science is ever going to sway you in your dogmatic beliefs, but how exactly do you explain how polar bears get to the middle east? and then how does the ark fit a pair each of all the animals in the world into it? and what about all the worms and bacteria? would they not be accidently breathed in by say...one of the giraffes and then one of the giraffes dying and there being only one giraffe left in the world unable to continue the species?



Yes, I do.

Try reading the account more closely. Also, try to think in terms of "bear" kind, and not in terms of modern taxonomy.

[xtreem5150ahm]

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Indeed! You forgot to add that you believe in a that although allegedly 'omnibenevolent', still deliberately sends people to burn in hell for all eternity, when he has absolutely no need to do so. You were right, that is much worse.





Pssst, you forgot to mention that our freewill to choose to except the work of Christ is the way out that God gave us. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

[xtreem5150ahm]

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

^...are you serious?

I have to ask (because this is one thing that really boggled my mind):

Matthew, Chapter 1, lists 26 generations between Joseph and King David. Luke, Chapter 3:23-38, records 41 generations between Joseph and David. Also, a majority of the names are different between David all the way down to Jacob (Joseph's father).

How do you explain this?

Some fundamentalists stated that Matthew is listing Joseph's family line, while the one listed in Luke is that of Mary's. But think for a second...there is a 15 generation difference between the lines! Assuming Mary was the younger between Joseph and her (because she was percieved a young virgin woman), that would mean Joseph was the equivelant of her great-great-great-great-great-great-great-

great-great-great-great-great-great-

grandfather!!!

I've given the scripture, count the names, do the math. It is impossible.

Furthermore, Jesus stated in Matthew 12:40, "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

Mark 15:45 states that Jesus was placed in the tomb on the afternoon of Preperation Day (the day before the Sabbath). The Jewish Sabbath began sundown on Friday and lasted until sundown on Saturday, meaning that a body must be buried before sundown on Preperation Day, lest it be left out during Sabbath (because you cannot bury the dead on a the Sabbath). So He entered the tomb Friday.

Fast forward to Mark 16:9 and it says "When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week". Sabbath day is Saturday. First day of the week is Sunday.

So He was in the tomb Friday night, Saturday night, but not Sunday night!

He said specifically three nights and yet only stayed in the grave for two!

There are only 2 possible conclusions to draw from this:

1) The Bible is false, and Jesus was really dead for 3 nights. or

2) The Bible is true and Jesus failed to fulfill His own prophecy.

If you don't believe it, read the bloody scripture for yourself. No tricks. No 'shady interpretations' or anything out of context. Blanket statements that create a mass contradiction.



Yes, i am serious.

Anyway, i'll reply to this tonight after work.

Have a good day.

[Rust]

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



Pssst, you forgot to mention that our freewill to choose to except the work of Christ is the way out that God gave us. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)



No, actually, I didn't forget. That's already taken into account. Even with our free will, there is still absolutely no need to send someone to hell for all eternity. Hence, like it or not, your god is needlessly sending people to suffer. That's the extent of your "morality"; you worship and praise a being that deliberately, and without need, sends people to suffer unspeakable things.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 03-02-2006).]

[ohhi]

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



Pssst, you forgot to mention that our freewill to choose to except the work of Christ is the way out that God gave us. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)





If you really think about it... Christians are usually the people without free will because they are basically dragged into the whole religion thing by things like you will burn in hell forever or you will go to heaven only through our savior jesus christ. What a joke.

And if you really, really think about it, your God CAN NOT give you nor have free will even for himself.

edit: And in addition to what some have already said, I am very surprised by your action (going from hardcore christian to... well whatever you are now - atheist I guess) and have more respect for you. I wish more people would realize what exactly they are doing with their lives.

If everyone would suddenly become hardcore christians (mind you that's the only way to be - place god above everyone and everything you do, above everyone you love/care for etc etc - basically if you only love god with 99.9% of your heart it means that you are spitting in his face, and I've heard this from a lot of priests and hardcore christians) then this world would lose so much. There would not be any second opinions, people would never question things - life on this planet would just stop - and everyone would spend hours every day worshiping this invisible buddy. We would be dead.

[This message has been edited by ohhi (edited 03-02-2006).]

[Xiao Mei]

I lost my faith when I was 20.

I realised that if there is a god, he's not worth praying to.

[Snoopy]

quote:Originally posted by TerminatorVinitiatoR:

i can't believe more people didn't take the chance to take the piss out of this!

1. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA

2. "People think asking themselves the "when" "how" and "why" questions makes them smart. And people answering the "when "how" and "why" questions think they're even smarter." and so you must be even smarter than them because; "I'm rolling on the dance train and the Champagne in the VIP is free cause some rich political weenie or some celebrity doesn't know what to do with their money"

wow

wow

so your so high and mighty in your world of high priced hookers and VIP rooms and "political weinies" and you take the time out to come on totse and actually give us your advice for free? how generous of you high and mighty high roller!

i've noticed this in alot of your posts, you slip in the little references to VIP lounges, "moet" and high class hookers in your posts, it's like you want people to fucken notice you or something!!! truth is shut the fuck up no one fucking cares! and anyway you probably found yourself in some club by accident on one occasion! you fucking walter mitty fantasist!

you think you've moved on, to some higher plane of existence or something!!! woohooo! in reality all you've become is a grade A PONCE!

Maybe not everyone is jealous of me having a good time. You find things "hard to believe" and are "skeptical" about what I write because you spend your time jacking off to Internet porno while attempting suicide over stupid ass political and global social issues. Truth be told, I don't give a fuck.

Not everyone who comes on totse is 13 years old and looking for a way to get back at his history teacher. There's some really great people here, with awesome lives and great stories. Just because you are not one of them, does not justify your skepticism and your "hard to believe-ism".

On a side note of "high roller strip clubs" and "classy clubs", I've come to know that every political person, or just about anyone with real power and money enjoys the fast life of drugs, alcohol and overpriced escort girls. Just because you're a loser and are unable to mingle with this in crowd, does not mean that the fat cats of society won't mingle with the likes of me.

I have many great things to tell, and more exciting things to do, so you just keep trying to justify your pathetic situation in your lack of life while I roll the die.

[xtreem5150ahm]

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

I have to ask (because this is one thing that really boggled my mind):

Matthew, Chapter 1, lists 26 generations between Joseph and King David. Luke, Chapter 3:23-38, records 41 generations between Joseph and David. Also, a majority of the names are different between David all the way down to Jacob (Joseph's father).

How do you explain this?

Some fundamentalists stated that Matthew is listing Joseph's family line, while the one listed in Luke is that of Mary's. But think for a second...there is a 15 generation difference between the lines! Assuming Mary was the younger between Joseph and her (because she was percieved a young virgin woman), that would mean Joseph was the equivelant of her great-grea t-great-gr eat-great- great-grea t-

grea t-great-gr eat-great- great-grea t-

grandfather!!!

I've given the scripture, count the names, do the math. It is impossible.



I hope the quote tags work, else this is going to be a mess.

I'm curious, did you find this yourself or run across some lists of Bible difficulties by someone else... no insult intended, i'm just trying to get an idea of where/how your Faith is being tried/tested.

Also, you say that you are losing your Faith.

If you truely have Faith (and i mean here, to the level that you are already saved), i dont think it can be lost.. although it can be tested to the point of misplacing it at times. The reason i'm pointing this out is that, in many of the comments in this thread (by many of the posters), there seems to be the idea that Faith is something that we can achieve on our own (or with our help). This is not so! Faith is given us by God, in the measures that He gives each one of us... yes, even Rust (and that was not meant as a dig). {Rom 12:3 ; 2Co 10:15}. Another thing about Faith, it can grow.. sometimes it grows after some whithering (which seems to be what you might be experiencing... but you already know what you should do about that).

i resently reformated my hard-drive, and i havent finished putting all the stuff back in. I had a great article that dealt with this (and thought that it was already among the stuff i already put back in), but so far i can't find it. Soooo... if you found this difficulty via some list that you ran across, please check out:

http://www.carm.org/diff/2geneologies.htm

It is pretty concise.. although it is lacking some, on the reason for the different amounts of generations (it does touch on it, but not well at all, IMO).

But, if you found this difficulty on your own (which is very commendable), maybe this, from Adam Clarke's commentary on the Bible might help you some:

quote:Luk 3:23 -

Thirty years of age - This was the age required by the law, to which the priests must arrive before they could be installed in their office: see Num_4:3.

Being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph - This same phrase is used by Herodotus to signify one who was only reputed to be the son of a particular person: τουτου παις νομιζεται he was Supposed to be this man’s son. Much learned labor has been used to reconcile this genealogy with that in St. Matthew, Matthew 1:1-17, and there are several ways of doing it; the following, which appears to me to be the best, is also the most simple and easy. For a more elaborate discussion of the subject, the reader is referred to the additional observations at the end of the chapter. Matthew, in descending from Abraham to Joseph, the spouse of the blessed virgin, speaks of Sons properly such, by way of natural generation: Abraham begat Isaac, and Isaac begat Jacob, etc. But Luke, in ascending from the Savior of the world to God himself, speaks of sons either properly or improperly such: on this account he uses an indeterminate mode of expression, which may be applied to sons either putatively or really such. And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being, as was Supposed the son of Joseph - of Heli - of Matthat, etc. This receives considerable support from Raphelius’s method of reading the original ων (ὡς ενομιζετο υἱος Ιωσηφ http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif) του Ἡλι, being (when reputed the son of Joseph) the son of Heli, etc. That St. Luke does not always speak of sons properly such, is evident from the first and last person which he names: Jesus Christ was only the supposed son of Joseph, because Joseph was the husband of his mother Mary: and Adam, who is said to be the son of God, was such only by creation. After this observation it is next necessary to consider, that, in the genealogy described by St. Luke, there are two sons improperly such: i.e. two sons-in-law, instead of two sons. As the Hebrews never permitted women to enter into their genealogical tables, whenever a family happened to end with a daughter, instead of naming her in the genealogy, they inserted her husband, as the son of him who was, in reality, but his father-in-law. This import, bishop Pearce has fully shown, νομιζεσθαι bears, in a variety of places - Jesus was considered according to law, or allowed custom, to be the son of Joseph, as he was of Heli. The two sons-in-law who are to be noticed in this genealogy are Joseph the son-in-law of Heli, whose own father was Jacob, Mat_1:16; and Salathiel, the son-in-law of Neri, whose own father was Jechonias: 1Ch_3:17, and Mat_1:12. This remark alone is sufficient to remove every difficulty. Thus it appears that Joseph, son of Jacob, according to St. Matthew, was son-in-law of Heli, according to St. Luke. And Salathiel, son of Jechonias, according to the former, was son-in-law of Neri, according to the latter. Mary therefore appears to have been the daughter of Heli; so called by abbreviation for Heliachim, which is the same in Hebrew with Joachim. Joseph, son of Jacob, and Mary; daughter of Heli, were of the same family: both came from Zerubbabel; Joseph from Abiud, his eldest son, Mat_1:13, and Mary by Rhesa, the youngest. See Luk_3:27. Salathiel and Zorobabel, from whom St. Matthew and St. Luke cause Christ to proceed, were themselves descended from Solomon in a direct line: and though St. Luke says that Salathiel was son of Neri, who was descended from Nathan, Solomon’s eldest brother, 1Ch_3:5, this is only to be understood of his having espoused Nathan’s daughter, and that Neri dying, probably, without male issues the two branches of the family of David, that of Nathan and that of Solomon, were both united in the person of Zerubbabel, by the marriage of Salathiel, chief of the regal family of Solomon, with the daughter of Neri, chief and heretrix of the family of Nathan. Thus it appears that Jesus, son of Mary, reunited in himself all the blood, privileges, and rights of the whole family of David; in consequence of which he is emphatically called, The son of David. It is worthy of being remarked that St. Matthew, who wrote principally for the Jews, extends his genealogy to Abraham through whom the promise of the Messiah was given to the Jews; but St. Luke, who wrote his history for the instruction of the Gentiles, extends his genealogy to Adam, to whom the promise of the Redeemer was given in behalf of himself and of all his posterity. See the notes on Mat_1:1, etc.



and here is Clarke's notes on Mat 1:1..

quote:Mat 1:1 -

The book of the generation of Jesus Christ - I suppose these words to have been the original title to this Gospel; and that they signify, according to the Hebrew Phraseology, not only the account of the genealogy of Christ, as detailed below, hut the history of his birth, acts, sufferings, death, resurrection, and ascension.

The phrase, book of the generation, ספר תולדות sepher toledoth, is frequent in the Jewish writings, and is translated by the Septuagint, βιβλος γενεσεως, as here, by the evangelist; and regularly conveys the meaning given to it above; e.g. This is the book of the generations of Adam, Gen_5:1. That is, the account of the life of Adam and certain of his immediate descendants. Again. These are the generations of Jacob, Gen_37:2. That is, the account or history of Jacob, his son Joseph, and the other remarkable branches of the family. And again. These are the generations of Aaron and Moses, Num_3:1. That is, the history of the life and acts of these persons, and some of their immediate descendants. The same form of expression is also used, Gen_2:4, when giving the history of the creation of heaven and earth.

Some have translated βιβλος γενεσεως, The book of the genealogy; and consider it the title of this chapter only; but the former opinion seems better founded.

Jesus Christ - See on Mat_1:16, Mat_1:21 (note).

The son of David, the son of Abraham - No person ever born could boast, in a direct line, a more illustrious ancestry than Jesus Christ. Among his progenitors, the regal, sacerdotal, and prophetic offices, existed in all their glory and splendor. David, the most renowned of sovereigns, was king and prophet: Abraham, the most perfect character in all antiquity, whether sacred or profane, was priest and prophet: but the three offices were never united except in the person of Christ; he alone was prophet, priest, and king; and possessed and executed these offices in such a supereminent degree as no human being ever did, or ever could do. As the principal business of the prophet was to make known the will of God to men, according to certain partial communications received from Heaven; so Jesus, who lay in the bosom of the Father, and who was intimately and thoroughly acquainted with all the mysteries of the eternal world, came to declare the Divine nature and its counsels to mankind; see Joh_1:18. As the business of the priest was to offer sacrifices to God, to make atonement for the sins of the people; so Christ was constituted a high priest, to make, by the sacrifice of himself, an atonement for the sins of the whole world; see 1Jo_2:2, and the whole Epistle to the Hebrews. As the office of king was to reign over, protect, and defend the people committed to his care by the Divine Providence; so Christ is set as a king upon Sion, having the heathen for his inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for his possession, Psa_2:6, Psa_2:8, etc. Of the righteousness, peace, and increase of whose government, there shall be no end, Isa_9:7. This three-fold office, Christ executes not only in a general sense, in the world at large; but, in a particular sense, in every Christian soul. He is first a prophet, to teach the heart of man the will of God; to convict the conscience of sin, righteousness, and judgment; and fully to illustrate the way of salvation. He is next a priest, to apply that atonement to the guilty conscience, the necessity of which, as a prophet, he had previously made known. And lastly, as a king, he leads captivity captive, binds and casts out the strong man armed, spoils his goods, extends the sway of the scepter of righteousness, subdues and destroys sin, and reigns Lord over all the powers and faculties of the human soul; so that As sin reigned unto death, Even so does grace reign through righteousness, unto eternal life, by Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom_5:21.

It is remarkable, that the evangelist names David before Abraham, though the latter was many generations older: the reason seems to be this, that David was not only the most illustrious of our Lord’s predecessors, as being both king and prophet; but because that promise, which at first was given to Abraham, and afterwards, through successive generations, confirmed to the Jewish people, was at last determined and restricted to the family of David. Son of David, was an epithet by which the Messiah was afterwards known among the Jews; and, under this title, they were led to expect him by prophetic authority. See Psa_89:3, Psa_89:4; Psa_132:10, Psa_132:11, compared with Act_13:23, and Isa_11:1; Jer_23:5. Christ was prophesied of under the very name of David. See Eze_34:23, Eze_34:24; Eze_37:24, Eze_37:25.



God Bless you and keep you,

johhny

[xtreem5150ahm]

just so you know, the smilie face (and some other character problems) in the above post is a problem with the code used by TOTSE getting screwed up with the Greek/Hebrew text..

And no, i cant read either language. I have to rely on dictionaries and commentaries.

[xtreem5150ahm]

Elephantitis Man, you also asked about Matthew 12:40. I have to admit that i never read this verse as thoroughly as you did.. thanks for pointing it out.



The CARM site offers to possible answers to this difficulty.

http://www.carm.org/diff/Matt12_40.htm



AND if your not sick of Clarke yet LOL...

quote:

Mat 12:40 -

Three days and three nights - Our Lord rose from the grave on the day but one after his crucifixion: so that, in the computation in this verse, the part of the day on which he was crucified, and the part of that on which he rose again, are severally estimated as an entire day; and this, no doubt, exactly corresponded to the time in which Jonah was in the belly of the fish. Our Lord says, As Jonah was, so shall the Son of man be, etc. Evening and morning, or night and day, is the Hebrew phrase for a natural day, which the Greeks termed νυχθημερον, nuchthemeron. The very same quantity of time which is here termed three days and three nights, and which, in reality, was only one whole day, a part of two others, and two whole nights, is termed three days and three nights, in the book of Esther: Go; neither eat nor drink Three Days, Night or Day, and so I will go in unto the king: Est_4:16. Afterwards it follows, Est_5:1. On the Third Day, Esther stood in the inner court of the king’s house. Many examples might be produced, from both the sacred and profane writers, in vindication of the propriety of the expression in the text. For farther satisfaction, the reader, if he please, may consult Whitby and Wakefield, and take the following from Lightfoot.

“I. The Jewish writers extend that memorable station of the unmoving sun, at Joshua’s prayer, to six and thirty hours; for so Kimchi upon that place: ‘According to more exact interpretation, the sun and moon stood still for six and thirty hours: for when the fight was on the eve of the Sabbath, Joshua feared lest the Israelites might break the Sabbath; therefore he spread abroad his hands, that the sun might stand still on the sixth day, according to the measure of the day of the Sabbath, and the moon according to the measure of the night of the Sabbath, and of the going out of the Sabbath, which amounts to six and thirty hours.’

“II. If you number the hours that pass from our Savior’s giving up the ghost upon the cross to his resurrection, you shall find almost the same number of hours; and yet that space is called by him three days and three nights, whereas two nights only came between, and one complete day. Nevertheless, while he speaks these words, he is not without the consent both of the Jewish schools and their computation. Weigh well that which is disputed in the tract Scabbath, concerning the separation of a woman for three days; where many things are discussed by the Gemarists, concerning the computation of this space of three days. Among other things these words occur: R. Ismael saith, Sometimes it contains four אונות onoth, sometimes five, sometimes six. But how much is the space of an אונה onah? R. Jochanan saith, Either a day or a night. And so also the Jerusalem Talmud: ‘R. Akiba fixed a Day for an onah, and a Night for an onah.’ But the tradition is, that R. Eliazar ben Azariah said, A day and a night make an onah: and a Part of an onah is as the Whole. And a little after, R. Ismael computed a part of the onah for the whole.” Thus, then, three days and three nights, according to this Jewish method of reckoning, included any part of the first day; the whole of the following night; the next day and its night; and any part of the succeeding or third day.

In the whale’s belly - That a fish of the shark kind, and not a whale, is here meant, Bochart has abundantly proved, vol. iii. col. 742, etc., edit. Leyd. 1692. It is well known that the throat of a whale is capable of admitting little more than the arm of an ordinary man; but many of the shark species can swallow a man whole, and men have been found whole in the stomachs of several. Every natural history abounds with facts of this kind. Besides, the shark is a native of the Mediterranean Sea, in which Jonah was sailing when swallowed by what the Hebrew terms דג גדול dag gadol, a great fish; but every body knows that whales are no produce of the Mediterranean Sea, thought some have been by accident found there, as in most other parts of the maritime world: but, let them be found where they may, there is none of them capable of swallowing a man. Instead of either whale or shark, some have translated דג גדול dag gadol, Jon_1:17, by a fishing cove, or something of this nature; but this is merely to get rid of the miracle: for, according to some, the whole of Divine revelation is a forgery - or it is a system of metaphor or allegory, that has no miraculous interferences in it. But, independently of all this, the criticism is contemptible. Others say, that the great fish means a vessel so called, into which Jonah went, and into the hold of which he was thrown, where he continued three days and three nights. In short, it must be any thing but a real miracle, the existence of which the wise men, so called, of the present day, cannot admit. Perhaps these very men are not aware that they have scarcely any belief even in the existence of God himself!

[ohhi]

From your CHRISTIAN point of view faith might be given by God. Normal people decide for themselves to either have faith or not. I have faith that I will send this freaking envelope with stickers to this kid who asked me about it a long time ago. I chose to have this faith - not God. But then again - you are too obsessed with God to try to understand...

[Clarphimous]

http://www.totse.com/bbs/Forum15/HTML/005000.html

Elephantitis man -- here's something for you to read that I wrote about the genealogies of Jesus. It should explain it pretty well. Note that somebody has tried to respond so far, but when they did they seemed to dodge most of my points. So I didn't bother with responding. Judge for yourself.

[Elephantitis Man]

Ok, I'll grant the time He was in the grave is a plausible argument. The geneology, however, still seems suspect to criticism in that Joseph's line is 15 generations shorter than Mary's.

Another fun one for you. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Matthew 2:13

And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

Luke 2:1-4

1And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed.

2(And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)

3And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.

4And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

So Luke states that Jospeh and Mary went to Bethlehem so Joseph could participate in a Roman Census of Judea so they could be taxed. Historically, this happened in the year 6 AD, when Judea first became a Roman province.

Unfortunately, in Mark it is stated that Jesus was born in Bethlehem under the rule of Herod the Great, who supposedly ordered all babies in Bethlehem killed and forced Joseph and Mary to flee with baby Jesus to Egypt.

Herod died in 4 BC.

So in Matthew, Jesus was born before 4 BC under Herod's rule. In Luke He was born in 6 AD when Rome was conducting its first census of Judea. If this seems shady to you, just read the story of the birth in Matthew and Luke. Luke never mentions them fleeing to Egypt as Matthew does.

Furthermore, Luke 2:21 states that on the 8th day after His birth, Joseph and Mary took Jesus to Jerusalem to be circumcised.

So was Jesus born before 4 BC, when Herod the Great was still alive? Or after 6 AD, when Rome conducted its first census of Judea?

Did Joseph and Mary flee to Egypt the night of Jesus's birth to avoid being killed by Herod's orders and stay there until Herod died? Or did they take a trip to Jerusalem 8 days after he was born to be circumcised?

[ohhi]

You are all fucking pathetic! Look at you. That's the problem with people like you. Always start shoving your bullshit at everyone. It would be so much better without you. Keep that shit to yourselves.

Not directed towards you Elephantitis Man

[This message has been edited by ohhi (edited 03-03-2006).]

[xtreem5150ahm]

QUOTE Originally posted by ohhi:

quote:

If you really think about it... Christians are usually the people without free will because they are basically dragged into the whole religion thing by things like you will burn in hell forever or you will go to heaven only through our savior jesus christ. What a joke.

Sorry, but your only half right.

Yes, Christians have (or atleast should've) given up their freewill in place of God's Will... in fact, i think that is the true definition of freewill.

As far as "basically dragged into the whole religion thing by ..." ; you are making the assumption that God does not exist or that it is man that comes to God without God's help.

quote:And if you really, really think about it, your God CAN NOT give you nor have free will even for himself.

Nope. Sorry, your wrong. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:edit: And in addition to what some have already said, I am very surprised by your action (going from hardcore christian to... well whatever you are now - atheist I guess)

I'm just wondering... how did you get the idea that i am an atheist?

Just for the record, i am Christian.



quote:I wish more people would realize what exactly they are doing with their lives.

Would you clarify this statement please? The way i'm understanding you, you seem to be saying that realizing Jesus the Christ suffered, died, went to Hell in my (our) place, rose from death and ascended to Heaven, so that i (we) can be offered the gift of Mercy is a waste of my life.

.... then define to me (if God does not exist) what is not a waste of life.

If God does not exist, then life is a waste of life, as it has no ultimate purpose.

quote:If everyone would suddenly become hardcore christians (mind you that's the only way to be - place god above everyone and everything you do, above everyone you love/care for etc etc

Whew... at least we agree on something... now, putting it to practice 100 percent of the time is the impossibility for a created being i.e. we would be God.



quote: - basically if you only love god with 99.9% of your heart it means that you are spitting in his face,

True... but this is really no different than any other sin... and the need for a Savior.

quote:then this world would lose so much. There would not be any second opinions, people would never question things - life on this planet would just stop - and everyone would spend hours every day worshiping this invisible buddy. We would be dead.

Nope and yep. You again are making the assumption that God does not exist. But yep, we are already dead. Life has not even started for us yet.

[xtreem5150ahm]

quote:Originally posted by ohhi:

You are all fucking pathetic! Look at you. That's the problem with people like you. Always start shoving your bullshit at everyone. It would be so much better without you. Keep that shit to yourselves.

Not directed towards you Elephantitis Man



And what did you expect to happen in a religious debate forum?? .. for everyone to beg you for the last girl scout cookie??

[xtreem5150ahm]

quote:Originally posted by ohhi:

From your CHRISTIAN point of view faith might be given by God. Normal people decide for themselves to either have faith or not. I have faith that I will send this freaking envelope with stickers to this kid who asked me about it a long time ago. I chose to have this faith - not God. But then again - you are too obsessed with God to try to understand...

LOL.. normal people... LOL

[xtreem5150ahm]

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

Ok, I'll grant the time He was in the grave is a plausible argument. The geneology, however, still seems suspect to criticism in that Joseph's line is 15 generations shorter than Mary's.

Another fun one for you. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Matthew 2:13

And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

Luke 2:1-4

1And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed.

2(And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)

3And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.

4And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

So Luke states that Jospeh and Mary went to Bethlehem so Joseph could participate in a Roman Census of Judea so they could be taxed. Historically, this happened in the year 6 AD, when Judea first became a Roman province.

Unfortunately, in Mark it is stated that Jesus was born in Bethlehem under the rule of Herod the Great, who supposedly ordered all babies in Bethlehem killed and forced Joseph and Mary to flee with baby Jesus to Egypt.

Herod died in 4 BC.

So in Matthew, Jesus was born before 4 BC under Herod's rule. In Luke He was born in 6 AD when Rome was conducting its first census of Judea. If this seems shady to you, just read the story of the birth in Matthew and Luke. Luke never mentions them fleeing to Egypt as Matthew does.

Furthermore, Luke 2:21 states that on the 8th day after His birth, Joseph and Mary took Jesus to Jerusalem to be circumcised.

So was Jesus born before 4 BC, when Herod the Great was still alive? Or after 6 AD, when Rome conducted its first census of Judea?

Did Joseph and Mary flee to Egypt the night of Jesus's birth to avoid being killed by Herod's orders and stay there until Herod died? Or did they take a trip to Jerusalem 8 days after he was born to be circumcised?

Umm, to the best of my recollection there were 2 Herods, but i'm not sure.

Time for bed, good nite.

[ohhi]

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

LOL.. normal people... LOL

You said it, chump.

[ohhi]

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

And what did you expect to happen in a religious debate forum?? .. for everyone to beg you for the last girl scout cookie??





So you basically agree with me that "your kind" blindly shoves all this crap down peoples' throatss?

[Elephantitis Man]

Heya, Lost. (I hope she reads this)

The threads gone a bit off topic. Do you think you could weed out the discussion of New Testament contradictions/interpretations to a seperate thread for seperate discussion and keep this one for my potential transition to atheism and avid critiquing and criticisms of Christian doctrine and philosophy?

Thanks. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

[ohhi]

quote:Sorry, but your only half right.

Yes, Christians have (or atleast should've) given up their freewill in place of God's Will... in fact, i think that is the true definition of freewill.

As far as "basically dragged into the whole religion thing by ..." ; you are making the assumption that God does not exist or that it is man that comes to God without God's help.

You just contradicted yourself. It's not free if you have to give somehting up. And yes, god doesn't exist.

quote: And if you really, really think about it, your God CAN NOT give you nor have free will even for himself.

Nope. Sorry, your wrong.

If he already knows what's going to happen... he can't really change his mind now, can he?

quote:I'm just wondering... how did you get the idea that i am an atheist?

Just for the record, i am Christian.

Good for you! I was talking to Elephantitis Man you fucking t00l

quote:Would you clarify this statement please? The way i'm understanding you, you seem to be saying that realizing Jesus the Christ suffered, died, went to Hell in my (our) place, rose from death and ascended to Heaven, so that i (we) can be offered the gift of Mercy is a waste of my life.

.... then define to me (if God does not exist) what is not a waste of life.

If God does not exist, then life is a waste of life, as it has no ultimate purpose.

Whooptie doo... I didn't ask him to do it. Not a waste of life? Not spending time at church or related places 1/4 of your life worshipping something that you HAVE TO HAVE faith in because you don't even know if it exists - that's one for ya.

quote:Whew... at least we agree on something... now, putting it to practice 100 percent of the time is the impossibility for a created being i.e. we would be God.

I never said that I agree with that... Infact I think that's the most selfish thing to to. And I'd like to think that I'm not a selfish man. And you are saying that priest and stuff are gods because they devote their lives to this bullshit?

quote:True... but this is really no different than any other sin... and the need for a Savior.

Only weak minds need a savior.

quote:Nope and yep. You again are making the assumption that God does not exist. But yep, we are already dead. Life has not even started for us yet.

Would you like to get run over by bus tomorrow to quicken the start of your life?

WOW - i can't believe I'm talking to a more mature and most likely much older person. You are fucked up.

[HellzShellz]

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

Hmm...I don't really know where to begin.

I am a Christian, quickly losing faith in Christianity. Not to say there there isn't a 'deity' (or isn't one), but I'm starting to consider that my religion holds no water.

The more I think about the concept of the Christian God, contradictions of the doctrines, the validity of the Bible, the more I doubt. One can't disagree that there is a very good argument, not just against the Christian religion, but against the concept of 'blind faith' itself (which Christianity is essentially founded upon).

I don't know what to do. I don't know if anyone else here has experienced something like this before, but it almost tears a guy apart in slowly discovering he has misled himself his entire life. Even now, my mind screams "See, you dope. I told you; you can't justify a meaning in the universe because it 'feels good' to do so. Because believing in a God makes you 'feel complete' doesn't necessarily mean one has to exist."

I just...don't know what to believe, what to think anymore. http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

Does anyone have any advice?



Yeah, Let me ask this.. Elephantitis..

Do you read the Word DAILY and pray DAILY?

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

Faith is also refered to as the 'brestplate'. Why? The brestplate guards the heart. Faith, Guards the heart so that it's [faith] able to WITHSTAND every FIERY dart. This goes back to the parable of Mark 4:

Brother you're going to have to MEDITATE ON THE WORD, Day and night.. Meditate means to think on. Mark 4.. The Sower, (you) sows the Word.. Where? Into the heart. The FOWLS of the AIR come and devour the Word. (Read Mark 4: After reading this.)

Then the CARES of the WORLD choke the WORD and it becomes UNFRUITFUL.



Jesus says many times durning this Parable, "Him that hears let him hear" Or "You better pay careful attention."

Mark 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Mark 4:4 And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.

Mark 4:20-23

And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred. And he said unto them, Is a candle brought to be put under a bushel, or under a bed? and not to be set on a candlestick? For there is nothing hid, which shall not be manifested; neither was any thing kept secret, but that it should come abroad. If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

Brother, Jesus did not change the Subject here..

For there is nothing hid, which shall not be manifested; neither was any thing kept secret, but that it should come abroad. If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

When you SOW a SEED in the ground, it's first hidden in the Dirt, so that is may TAKE ROOT and SPRING FORTH FRUIT, as a product of the seed that was sown.

The seeds your SOW into your heart, will BEAR FRUIT. The Seed you plant in the ground, will grow and be seen.

Mark 4:24And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.

Mark 4:25 For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath.

Chew on that one..

I love these Scripture here.. Why.. Well look at it.. Be CAREFUL of the THOUGHTS you think on.. Be careful about how much thought you give what you hear,

Whew, That will preach!



Why..??

John 15:1-2 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Right there, in John 15: Go on and read 1-8

Mark 4:26-32 And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground; And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how. For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade[30 fold], then the ear[60 fold], after that the full corn in the ear.[100 fold] But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come. And he said, Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it? It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth: But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it.

SOW THE WORD IN YOUR HEART, BECAUSE FAITH COMES BY HEARING, AND HEARING BY THE WORD OF GOD.

ADDED:

When I was slacking off, because I had gotten out of the Word, and I was thinking on the thoughts the enemy wanted me to.. I was so desprate for a drink of water.. in the spiritual sense, I so LONGED, for drink. That precious water in which you'll never thrist again. Oh I wanted more of God, and I cried out to Him, because I KNEW, I KNEW I didn't lack Faith. I knew that when the Devil says you're not saved, or you don't have faith, it's a sure sign that you are saved, and do have faith.

I was watching Bush, on TV, give a speech, and I was so open to receive ANYTHING I could from God, so I listened intently, thinking of God while hearing what Bush was saying and I heard Bush say.. "Sometimes you have to know what the enemy is after to know how to defeat him." And I cried tears of Joy, because God just spoke to me through a person who ministered to me without even knowing it. What is the enemy after?? He's after the WORD... But he can't have it, unless you LET him have it. So He'll try to seduce and lure you into deception, so that you will give it to him.. Like Adam gave dominion to him.. He wants you to give it to him to. See he's under your feet, He's defeated, but if you don't know that.. if you don't use the authority you have In Christ, the Enemy gains authority over you, because you perish for a lack of knowledge.. you perish because you don't know..

It boils down to this.. are you willing to CONTEND, are you ready for WARFARE, because you have to FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT Of Faith.



[This message has been edited by HellzShellz (edited 03-03-2006).]

[TerminatorVinitiatoR]

shut. the. fuck. up.

[ohhi]

WOW!

This is what most of US is like. It is truly frightening. I'm speachless.

You should listen to yourself talk... just... wow

[Elephantitis Man]

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

I love these Scripture here.. Why.. Well look at it.. Be CAREFUL of the THOUGHTS you think on.. Be careful about how much thought you give what you hear,

So I should be careful of the thoughts I think on because thinking about the wrong thoughts will only lead me astray?

Here is my opinion. In my thoughts, I search for truth. If, no matter what thoughts I think, I think them searching for truth, I will find it.

So if Christianity is truth, then thinking and observing atheistic thoughts and critiquing Christian theology will eventually lead me to Christianity.

If strong atheism is truth, I will eventually discover it to be true.

Right now, the truth is I don't know what is true.

Seeking truth is based around finding a few key factors that all truth carries with it: solid reasoning, and solid evidence.

To find an anomoly in evidence or a fallacy in reason is contrary to the truth. Needless to say, I have found rather outstanding fallacies in the reason of Christian beliefs.

Faith arises when solid evidence is not to be found, but solid reasoning is. I used to have faith in Christianity, I knew there was no evidence but I felt I had solid reasoning.

Faith is different from knowledge. You even said yourself that faith can shrink and grow. Knowlede however, does not shrink and grow. To 'know' something is an absolute. To 'have faith' in something is dynamic.

That being said, no amount of 'faith' can ever bring knowledge. Thus, you can never know the truth by faith. You can merely have really strong, yet dynamic, faith in it.

So we reach the problem that led to the 'fall of my faith'. Fallacy in reason. Even the slightest fallacy in reason must be examined carefully. If it is deemed irrational in nature, it must be discarded.

That is what this thread is about. Examining the slightest fallacies, and realizing that by ignoring them, I am not finding truth, but deluding myself to further believe in irrational beliefs.

Faith in an irrational belief is ignorance. Fighting the discovery of fallacy by 'having faith' in other aspects of the very arguments the irrational belief supports is ignorant.

It's like the whole theology is a towering skyscraper. You notice the bottom story is crumbling, unstable, on the brink of collapsing the entire building. You can just close your eyes through that floor. Hop on the elevator, and go up to the deluxe suite. Everything up there is nice and luxurious. And you say to yourself, "Whenever thoughts of that crumbling bottom floor enter my mind, I'll just look around at this luxurious sweet. I'll focus on how peaceful and safe how it is up here, and that will make me all the more happier that I'm in this building; and after a while I'm sure I'll forget about that pesky first floor altogether." And before you know it, you've been in that suite so long, someone stops by and says, "That first floor looks dangers" and you reply "What are you talking about? See how solid the walls and floor is on this story? The whole building has to be like this!"

That is the same as discovering an irrational belief and saying, "If I just further dwell on other, more rational beliefs, I will soon forget that irrational belief. Before long, I will be at the point that when someone points out that irrational belief, my defense will be that since all the other beliefs I hold make sense, that one must too."

Sooner or later, the skyscraper will fall.

Sorry if this was long, but I just don't think that fighting my failing faith in a theology caused by irrational parts by just exagerating my faith in whatever rational parts I can find are going to restore my overall faith in the theology. It doesn't work that way.

[burymeag]

Honestly noone in the world blames you, and your right, christanity seems really bogus, I personaly belive it was romes last hope of controling the people, staging the jesus cruification to start a religion that will take over all others.

But just because this religion gave a bad name to the lord himself, doesnt mean god doesnt excist, you can find him easily by just loving him, all religion have the same puprose and this is to find the love of god,

you can find the love of god everywhere.

You just gotta keep a eye out on all the things he does for you, how he sincronices things just so they can become your way, maybe christanity might have runined ur view point of life and god, but i asure u he excist, and we will be stuck in this hell until we realize this

there alot of religions to follow, some of them are fake, some of them are from god himself, is just hard to find the truth from the false, but once you know, u will know, and no matter what reality u choose to belive, from devils to angels ,to blue guys with 4 arms, God will make the reality true

[Rust]

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:



So we reach the problem that led to the 'fall of my faith'. Fallacy in reason. Even the slightest fallacy in reason must be examined carefully. If it is deemed irrational in nature, it must be discarded.



This made my day. That is the reasonable position to take, and I'm happy that you were able to "reach" it so to speak.

That's the most an a rational human being would ask of you: to question your beliefs with the use of logic and reason, and then base your conclusions/position on what you find - not the other way around.

I only ask that if you reach a conclusion/position you post it here so that we may examine it as rational or irrational as well.

[Snoopy]

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

This made my day. That is the reasonable position to take, and I'm happy that you were able to "reach" it so to speak.

That's the most an a rational human being would ask of you: to question your beliefs with the use of logic and reason, and then base your conclusions/position on what you find - not the other way around.

I only ask that if you reach a conclusion/position you post it here so that we may examine it as rational or irrational as well.

Why don't you question your own beliefs you piece of shit idealist. You have no fucking right to judge on what's rational and irrational. That's why you're a poor spic living in a 3rd world country.

[ohhi]

quote:Originally posted by burymeag:

Honestly noone in the world blames you, and your right, christanity seems really bogus, I personaly belive it was romes last hope of controling the people, staging the jesus cruification to start a religion that will take over all others.

But just because this religion gave a bad name to the lord himself, doesnt mean god doesnt excist, you can find him easily by just loving him, all religion have the same puprose and this is to find the love of god,

you can find the love of god everywhere.

You just gotta keep a eye out on all the things he does for you, how he sincronices things just so they can become your way, maybe christanity might have runined ur view point of life and god, but i asure u he excist, and we will be stuck in this hell until we realize this

there alot of religions to follow, some of them are fake, some of them are from god himself, is just hard to find the truth from the false, but once you know, u will know, and no matter what reality u choose to belive, from devils to angels ,to blue guys with 4 arms, God will make the reality true



Have you even thought for a second about what exactly you are writing? You are no better then any Christians out there.

So what is the RIGHT religion then? How exactly do you know which one it is? Is it the one that makes more sence? Is it the one that practices beliefs you like?

And I'm more then sure that Elephantitis man loved God. Probably even more then you. Now can you explain why exactly he is this way right now since after you find the love of God you should be "good to go".

[hyroglyphx]

quote:Originally posted by burymeag:

Honestly noone in the world blames you, and your right, christanity seems really bogus, I personaly belive it was romes last hope of controling the people, staging the jesus cruification to start a religion that will take over all others.

But just because this religion gave a bad name to the lord himself, doesnt mean god doesnt excist, you can find him easily by just loving him, all religion have the same puprose and this is to find the love of god,

you can find the love of god everywhere.

You just gotta keep a eye out on all the things he does for you, how he sincronices things just so they can become your way, maybe christanity might have runined ur view point of life and god, but i asure u he excist, and we will be stuck in this hell until we realize this

there alot of religions to follow, some of them are fake, some of them are from god himself, is just hard to find the truth from the false, but once you know, u will know, and no matter what reality u choose to belive, from devils to angels ,to blue guys with 4 arms, God will make the reality true

Uh, when the Romans occupied Palestine, the majority were Zoroastrian. It wasn't until Constantine, hundreds of years after, that Romans as a whole began to follow Jesus. So much for the Roman control theory.

[burymeag]

Different religions are just different ways of finding a path to love god, this is what religion is meant for, even if some of the religions are man made, there has to be some truth in it, so god has a good reason to let this religion excist, even if it describes himself totaly wrong, it works , you might not go to hell or to a heaven with bunch of angels that look like humans and a god who sits in a room judging who can go to heaven, but you become one step closer, to realizing the supreme truth

[Hellenistic Riot]

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

Just live a fun life without bothering with the banal questions of the weak minded. People think asking themselves the "when" "how" and "why" questions makes them smart. And people answering the "when "how" and "why" questions think they're even smarter.

It really matters fuck all. The world does not work that way. Let me give you an example. There are worthless weenies who don't do anything but debate on social and political issues. They hold fuck knows how many degrees, and think they're the shit. They've wasted their pathetic lives on their pathetic ideologies. Do they make a difference? No, the fucking don't.

I often meet political figures in classy clubs and high roller strip clubs and the likes. They don't give a fuck about what moms think about video games or what Christians think about abortion. They make up their minds on a whim of alcohol, drugs and high priced hookers.

It's the way our world turns around. The difference is, while you assholes are sitting here "debating" good from bad, and right from wrong, I'm rolling on the dance train and the Champagne in the VIP is free cause some rich political weenie or some celebrity doesn't know what to do with their money.

So, when you're in your teens, you'll do stupid shit like ask yourself questions like "why". Before you know it, you're a full blown emo cunt. However, you'll grow out of that, get a job, a fine ass bitch and live it up. Some people however, don't grow out of it, and waste their lives being worthless sacks of shit.

Snoopy, I used to hate you, but that one post makes me love you.

I started exploring other religions when I was 10, and then eventually rejected all of them and new age bullshit when I was 12.

I'm sorry this had to happen to you later on, Elephantitis.

Advice: http://subgenius.com/

[ohhi]

quote:Originally posted by burymeag:

Different religions are just different ways of finding a path to love god, this is what religion is meant for, even if some of the religions are man made, there has to be some truth in it, so god has a good reason to let this religion excist, even if it describes himself totaly wrong, it works , you might not go to hell or to a heaven with bunch of angels that look like humans and a god who sits in a room judging who can go to heaven, but you become one step closer, to realizing the supreme truth



What's the point then? You are still going to hell...

[burymeag]

I dont belive there is a hell, I think this is hell we are living right now, we are traped under so many laws, and we have to find a way out of it, and god is the only one who can bring us the truth, I dont think there can be a devil, and even there is a devil, it would be under the mercy of god, and only excist because god wannet him to be there.

[ohhi]

quote:Originally posted by burymeag:

I dont belive there is a hell, I think this is hell we are living right now, we are traped under so many laws, and we have to find a way out of it, and god is the only one who can bring us the truth, I dont think there can be a devil, and even there is a devil, it would be under the mercy of god, and only excist because god wannet him to be there.



So what are you then?

[DarkMage35]

Man is the measure

of all things. Faith is what the

heart says. Follow it.

Pay very close attention to this voice in your mind that is screaming at you. Because that is what determines what you believe, and what kind of world you perceive and build. What? Evidence? Got absolutely /nothing/ to do with it. The things that are usually interpreted as evidence can be used to prove whatever you like, depending on what youve already decided you want to believe.

Anyone ever tried to see if rationality is rationally sound?

[ohhi]

quote:Originally posted by DarkMage35:

Man is the measure

of all things. Faith is what the

heart says. Follow it.

Pay very close attention to this voice in your mind that is screaming at you. Because that is what determines what you believe, and what kind of world you perceive and build. What? Evidence? Got absolutely /nothing/ to do with it. The things that are usually interpreted as evidence can be used to prove whatever you like, depending on what youve already decided you want to believe.

Anyone ever tried to see if rationality is rationally sound?



That's the problem - you are basically telling him not to question anything and just blindly believe it. What most of religious people do.

[DarkMage35]

You misunderstand. I am telling him that he has already decided what he will believe in. That is what his mind is showing. Paying more attention to that process is what should be done for stuff like this. Question /that/, not the evidence, because what is seen as the evidence will always be subordinate to that.

I am trying to invert something here. I am not advocating blind belief. Quite the opposite.

[This message has been edited by DarkMage35 (edited 03-04-2006).]

[Elephantitis Man]

I understand exactly what you're talking about DarkMage, questioning the true rationallity of my rationallity.

The least I can say about the whole experience as it is very, very difficult and continuing. For now I've taken a short break. Pretty much just resting in a mental state of unsolved irrationality. In other words, I've had insomnia for the past 4 days and have been unable to focus on much of anything. With midterms coming up next week, I can't really keep this up, the constant debate in my mind between rationality and feeling (it has even gotten to the point that my own feelings contradict each other).

So for the weekend and part of next week, I'm going to try and just relax the issue and enjoy the present for what it is, and for what I know, not speculate.

I'd also like to thank everyone who has submitted their advice and opinions (even Snoopy http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif) ).

[ohhi]

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

enjoy the present for what it is

Man this is exactly how people should live thir lives and not hope that God will save them. That's fucked.

[xtreem5150ahm]

quote:Originally posted by ohhi:



So you basically agree with me that "your kind" blindly shoves all this crap down peoples' throatss?



LOL... i hope you are meaning the "humankind".

But no, basically i was saying that if you visit a forum that debates religion, you must expect people to present and defend their position....

but if you come to a forum such as this, and think anything other than that as a possibility, then you are probably in the wrong place.

in other words, if you dont like it or think it is wrong, leave the forum. It isnt as though i invaded your home... you and i both entered into an area that has religious debate as the topic.

[xtreem5150ahm]

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

Heya, Lost. (I hope she reads this)

The threads gone a bit off topic. Do you think you could weed out the discussion of New Testament contradictions/interpretations to a seperate thread for seperate discussion and keep this one for my potential transition to atheism and avid critiquing and criticisms of Christian doctrine and philosophy?

Thanks. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Elephantitis Man,

i appologize for what seems to be hijacking your thread. I'm just trying to answer some of your (and other's) objections. And unless Lost feels that it should be weeded out, i hope it isnt too offensive if we continue as the thread leads us.

Johnny

[xtreem5150ahm]

At the end of this post, we are back on the topic of this thread.

quote:Originally posted by ohhi:

You just contradicted yourself. It's not free if you have to give somehting up. And yes, god doesn't exist.

Think in terms of ability, not cost.

As to the second part of that, let me save you a heap of time.

Your statement is that of a positive, hard atheist. This is self-refuting. By saying that there is no God, you would have to be able to see everywhere (inside and outside of the universe and time -- all at once), which would make you a god.

This is the reason that in my opinion, atheists have attempted to redefine the term. And this is the reason that i said earlier, that "And atheism is a belief that there is no God. Soft atheism is just a way of being an agnostic, but pretending to take a stand."

quote: If he already knows what's going to happen... he can't really change his mind now, can he?

You (we) are trapped in time, He is not.

quote: Good for you! I was talking to Elephantitis Man you fucking t00l

Re-read your post and you might see how it wasnt very specific that you changed who you were talking to.

quote:

Whooptie doo... I didn't ask him to do it. Not a waste of life? Not spending time at church or related places 1/4 of your life worshipping something that you HAVE TO HAVE faith in because you don't even know if it exists - that's one for ya.

You misunderstand my question.

That's ok, it was most likely in my delivery.. happens all the time.

I'll work on that.

Let me ask you, do you like to play video games? Of what purpose is that? (and please dont just say, "for fun and enjoyment") Does it accomplish anything past your own life?

If video games are not your thing, insert any form of recreation that you do.

quote:I never said that I agree with that... Infact I think that's the most selfish thing to to.

Let's look at the 10 Commandments alittle.

The first three are about our relationship with Him, the next 7 are about our relationship with people.

if you read nothing else, please read this

Jesus said:

quote:Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

quote:Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.

Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.



----------------

And finally, we are back on track with Elephantitis Man's topic:



quote:And I'd like to think that I'm not a selfish man. And you are saying that priest and stuff are gods because they devote their lives to this bullshit?

No, we are all selfish.. some more than others.

"Priests and stuff" are not gods in this frame of reference since they are people and still sin.

NO ONE IS WITHOUT SIN.

(1st John 1:8)

Now, whether you realized it or not, you made a very profound theological statement. Yes, they (we) are gods in the frame of reference that they (we) put their (our) ideas, choices, etc. over God. This is what sin is. (note: little 'g' vs. big 'G')

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

True... but this is really no different than any other sin... and the need for a Savior.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Only weak minds need a savior.

This is not meant as a cut down, just an observation.

Judging by your arguements, you have a weak mind. You need a Savior.

Me too.

MY arguements are likewise. When anyone places human ideas and understanding above God's Word (thus, above God), we are sinners in need of a Savior.. and that's ok since God has provided us with (the) One.

[crazed_hamster]

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

Here is my opinion. In my thoughts, I search for truth. If, no matter what thoughts I think, I think them searching for truth, I will find it.



And truth has what meaning? What does it matter if you find truth or not? What if truth isn't really all that it's cracked up to be? What if the truth you're so desperately looking for is something deeply to your disliking?

Here's a solution. Stop looking for truth. Write your own. Truth is entirely relative. Absolute truth means different things to different people. Make your own, and make it beautiful.

[SurahAhriman]

quote:Originally posted by crazed_hamster:

And truth has what meaning? What does it matter if you find truth or not? What if truth isn't really all that it's cracked up to be? What if the truth you're so desperately looking for is something deeply to your disliking?

Here's a solution. Stop looking for truth. Write your own. Truth is entirely relative. Absolute truth means different things to different people. Make your own, and make it beautiful.

Some of us aren't willing or able to lie to ourselves. Some of us can handle reality as it is, not as we wish it to be.

[ohhi]

quote:Think in terms of ability, not cost.

You said it yourself. You still are giving something up. So technically you can't "discart" my argument.

quote:You (we) are trapped in time, He is not.

Where is that mentioned in bible? And basically, after saying how great and all loving your god is and since he already knew what exactly would happen (he is all knowing) he made this world just basically for everyone to be "trapped in time"?

Furthermore, where exactly is he trapped in time? You are saying that there is time and space in heaven?

quote:Let me ask you, do you like to play video games? Of what purpose is that? (and please dont just say, "for fun and enjoyment") Does it accomplish anything past your own life?

What are you trying to prove here? Sure I liked playing video games. And excatly for the reasons you pointed out. Are you comparing religion to video games? Well if so, then I also played them to kill some time. So if you are talinkg about religion, then you would then imply that you are just "killing some time" before you go to heven? That's if you do at all and that's if there is one as well.



quote:Let's look at the 10 Commandments alittle.

The first three are about our relationship with Him, the next 7 are about our relationship with people.

OK? Let's look at what you are saying. First off. Those are not Commandments, but you already know that and was trying to show me how "loving/caring your God is".

Well let's look at it from different point of view. I do agree that your God is loving and caring at times and then there is the old testament... where he is far from being loving and caring.

Having said that, imagine that I'm god and tell you to place me above everyone and anything, love me more then anyone and anything etc etc. How is that not selfish? Look, it's pretty clear that he is a selfish god, there is no doubt about it, infact a lot of christians even admit it, so I really see no point in arguing this with you. Ok?

quote:NO ONE IS WITHOUT SIN.

(1st John 1:8)

Now, whether you realized it or not, you made a very profound theological statement. Yes, they (we) are gods in the frame of reference that they (we) put their (our) ideas, choices, etc. over God. This is what sin is. (note: little 'g' vs. big 'G')

I know what sin is. I have been through over 5 religions, thank you very much.

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name [was] Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

quote:Judging by your arguements, you have a weak mind. You need a Savior.

Me too.

MY arguements are likewise. When anyone places human ideas and understanding above God's Word (thus, above God), we are sinners in need of a Savior.. and that's ok since God has provided us with (the) One.

You got it a little bit mixed up here. Let me corrrect it for you, pal.

quote:Judging by my arguements, I have a weak mind. I need a Savior.

You don't.

[xtreem5150ahm]

QUOTE Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:



Here is my opinion. In my thoughts, I search for truth. If, no matter what thoughts I think, I think them searching for truth, I will find it.

What i hear, here, is that you are trying to be as objective as you can be. That is great!! I do too. However, it is impossible for humans to be 100 percent objective.

No matter what, we already have presuppositions.

No matter what, we also have to have an absolute truth on which to judge what we are deciding to be truth or not. Anything short of an absolute leaves us short of objective, and leaves us back at our presumptions. Now our presumptions can change, or atleast be in question (which seems to be kinda where you are in your life).

So if Christianity is truth, then thinking and observing atheistic thoughts and critiquing Christian theology will eventually lead me to Christianity.

Sorry, but i think this is (objectively)false for atleast three reasons:

1. presumption that Christian theology (teachings by man's understanding of God's Word) is complete

2. presumption that "atheistic thoughts" might be:

a)complete or incomplete

b)starting from a clean slate (completely unbias)

c)correct

example: you pointed to some difficulties in the Bible. I attempted to show that there are possible and plausible answers.

As DeeDee pointed out in the other site, some difficulties can be from culture understandings. Some difficulties are from not carefully reading the text (and this was alluded to in the other site as well-- think, more than one sabbath in a week.. which i think it does say sabboths ,plural).

3.and this is the big one.. that belief in God can be found by ones own actions, apart from God... which God's Word states that that is false. (Romans 3:9-12)

If strong atheism is truth, I will eventually discover it to be true.

If God does not exist, then yes, this is possible and plausible....

But then, what about me? How is your objectiveness different than mine, without an absolute by which to judge? But then again, if God does not exist, neither does an absolute OR objectivity.

Right now, the truth is I don't know what is true.

Seeking truth is based around finding a few key factors that all truth carries with it: solid reasoning, and solid evidence.

Fair enough, but again we are limitting our search to:

1. our abilities of understanding

2. the completeness of that "solid reasoning, and solid evidence"

3. the lack of presuppositions and/or the ability to COMPLETELY set them aside

To find an anomoly in evidence or a fallacy in reason is contrary to the truth. Needless to say, I have found rather outstanding fallacies in the reason of Christian beliefs.

Based on what absolute? Based on whose reasoning?

Also, remember that Christian beliefs come from Christian teachings, that hopefully come from not misunderstandings of God's Word. However, we know that some Christian teachings must be either wrong and/or incomplete, based partly or wholly (on disagreements of different denominations that are either/or.. and this, i think, stems from presuppositions i.e. literal creation/young earth VS. theistic evolution/long ages... another example might be faith alone VS. faith plus works VS. everyone is going to Heaven VS. only 144,000 -although, JW is not Christianity, but that's for a different time).

Faith arises when solid evidence is not to be found, but solid reasoning is. I used to have faith in Christianity, I knew there was no evidence but I felt I had solid reasoning.

There are volumes and volumes of solid evidence and solid reasoning. But the problem really comes from how those are judged (absolutes, presupostions, etc.).

Faith is different from knowledge. You even said yourself that faith can shrink and grow. Knowlede however, does not shrink and grow. To 'know' something is an absolute. To 'have faith' in something is dynamic.

Would you like both, the knowledge that God is, and Faith?

Ask Him to help you.

(i know this begs the question, and is/could be construed as "not being objective".. but no human can 'argue you'/ 'explain you' into believing... it is only an agreement between you and God, lead by the Holy Spirit... besides, i'm a teamster and i'd hate to do God's job.. that would be stealing (taking work and glory) from Him)

That being said, no amount of 'faith' can ever bring knowledge. Thus, you can never know the truth by faith. You can merely have really strong, yet dynamic, faith in it.

This is false, but i do not have any idea how to explain it. All i can say is that (atleast for me, in what i am thinking right now) they go hand in hand... one leads to the other, at the same time and also at different times.

I'll give this some thought, and see if i might be able to explain what i mean. If i dont get back to you, go ahead and continue with what you just said.

So we reach the problem that led to the 'fall of my faith'. Fallacy in reason. Even the slightest fallacy in reason must be examined carefully. If it is deemed irrational in nature, it must be discarded.

In stead of discarding it, why not just set it aside, or keep it in the back of your mind?

Quick example: when Einstein proposed the relativity theory, how did the scientific community take it? It took them awhile before they understood it, before they could accept it.

That is what this thread is about. Examining the slightest fallacies, and realizing that by ignoring them, I am not finding truth, but deluding myself to further believe in irrational beliefs.

Interesting.

Do you see what you've already learned? (i'm NOT saying that you've learned it in this thread)

That having Faith is not the same as blind faith. And in fact, if faith does grow, how could it grow if it were blind faith?

On one hand, i would say that blind faith might be more desirable... less responsibility.

On the other hand, blind faith doesnt seem to lend itself to much growth.

In otherwords, keep examining!!

Faith in an irrational belief is ignorance. Fighting the discovery of fallacy by 'having faith' in other aspects of the very arguments the irrational belief supports is ignorant.

I agree, but the problem with this approach seems to be what i said before: absolute truth, presuppositions and limitted human abilities.

It's like the whole theology is a towering skyscraper. You notice the bottom story is crumbling, unstable, on the brink of collapsing the entire building. You can just close your eyes through that floor. Hop on the elevator, and go up to the deluxe suite. Everything up there is nice and luxurious. And you say to yourself, "Whenever thoughts of that crumbling bottom floor enter my mind, I'll just look around at this luxurious sweet. I'll focus on how peaceful and safe how it is up here, and that will make me all the more happier that I'm in this building; and after a while I'm sure I'll forget about that pesky first floor altogether." And before you know it, you've been in that suite so long, someone stops by and says, "That first floor looks dangers" and you reply "What are you talking about? See how solid the walls and floor is on this story? The whole building has to be like this!"

Nice analogy!!

Which is precisely the point of presupposition and absolute truth.

It has been said that the most difficult verse in the Bible is Genesis 1:1 "In the begining God..."

and to carry that out, "..created the heaven and the earth".

This is my starting position. Not where i started from, but where i start from.. the foundation of the building in your analogy.

And really the only other option is, "in the begining, time plus matter plus chance...", but at that point, it already refuted itself.. something had to be from eternity past (looking at time in a linear fashion)... either God or energy/matter.

Just a quick look, ok?

"In the begining"... begining of what?-- time? But it says, "In the begining God created the heaven and the earth"

Just by that statement, God's Word is already placing God "before" time.. He must have created time.

Now let's say "big bang". Infinity before the big bang, it must have been in equilibrium (atleast at some point). What "caused" it to break from equilibrium?

I know i've built a strawman here, it was intentional for the sake of ease and time. But what i'm trying to get at is, no matter what you look at, you will find fallacies in reason, unless you have the correct starting point.. the absolute truth, without ANY preconcieved ideas.... not very hopeful, is it... either way, you must, at one point, have Faith in something.. basically it's man's word against God's Word... and this brings us back to preconcieved ideas.

So, if God exists and He is who He says He says He is, that that is THE absolute... and a wonderful starting point.

Anything besides this possibility will never be an absolute... but there is faith either way.

That is the same as discovering an irrational belief and saying, "If I just further dwell on other, more rational beliefs, I will soon forget that irrational belief. Before long, I will be at the point that when someone points out that irrational belief, my defense will be that since all the other beliefs I hold make sense, that one must too."

Sooner or later, the skyscraper will fall.

Sorry if this was long, but I just don't think that fighting my failing faith in a theology caused by irrational parts by just exagerating my faith in whatever rational parts I can find are going to restore my overall faith in the theology. It doesn't work that way.

You are right. The foundation is the key.



OK, i gotta run. Time to take a shower and get ready.. wife wants me to go to store with her.

[ohhi]

You sure do have a lot to say in defence of yourself and your religion. I ask why though?

[xtreem5150ahm]

You said it yourself. You still are giving something up. So technically you can't "discart" my argument.

Yes, in that sense, i have submitted to the Sovereignty of God. But freewill is a gift from God. It is our will to submit or not submit. That is what is free about freewill. Let's face it, most sin is fun (no, i'm not saying that most fun is sin). However, God is basically saying, "here are two choices: My (God's) desires or your (our) own desires."

The cost is trusting that He is telling the truth about an eternity with Him vs. an eternity in torment.



Where is that mentioned in bible?

God's Word says that He is eternal. I already pointed out one place in particular, in a response to Elephantis Man.

And basically, after saying how great and all loving your god is and since he already knew what exactly would happen (he is all knowing) he made this world just basically for everyone to be "trapped in time"?

To my knowledge, i dont think God has revealed to us what His purpose is, for creating. But yes, it appears that "trapped in time" is where we are now. My point with the term, "trapped in time", is that from a human point of veiw, we can only veiw choices in terms of time... this is what we experience. We might speculate choices outside of time (whether they exist or not, what it would be like, etc.), but because we are creatures of time and we have no experience of eternity (yet), how can we have any idea if God can change His mind -- apart from His revelation to us?

I can point you to places in scripture that show that there is both, man's freewill and predestination and the combining of the two (in fact, i have posted some in the past). There has been much written on the subject of free-will vs. predestination vs. God's Sovereignty vs. human responsibility. These arguements have gone on for centuries... and just so you know, the arguement of "if God knows that we will do A, then we cannot do B, etc." is just a scratch to the surface.

From a pretty thorough, yet concise explaination (only about 2 1/2 chapters) check out Ken Boa's God, i dont understand (i cant find my copy right now, so i dont know the publisher.. i think it was written in the mid 1970's... my wife and i were babysitting, and our 3 year old charge, "rearranged" my bookcase LOL)

Furthermore, where exactly is he trapped in time? You are saying that there is time and space in heaven?

i think that i said that God is not "trapped in time"... He is eternal. If i said otherwise, then that would have been a typo.... i'm not going back to check.

OK? Let's look at what you are saying. First off. Those are not Commandments,

OK? What are YOU saying? That they are the ten SUGGESTIONS?

but you already know that and was trying to show me how "loving/caring your God is".

i think the purpose of the 10 Commandments is to show us what God wants us to do (or not do); to show us that it is impossible to keep these all, on our own; and since it is impossible, our need for a Savior.

Basically, the 10 Commandments are a mirror to show us that we have separated from God. Christ is the means to remove that separation.

To use an analogy that i hope will both drive the point home and make you laugh:



Some men, after taking a piss, do not wash their hands. When someone says to them, "arent you going to wash?" they reply, "i didnt piss on my hands. it's just skin against skin".

They arent thinking "sweaty, bacteria covered skin against dirty hands that have touched other things that have dirt and bacteria on them".. so, in other words, they dont realize the need for soap.

Whether or not, a person knows about dirt and bacteria and soap, it does not change the fact that dirt, bacteria, and soap exist. But once one understands that they are dirty, and that there is a way to get clean.. then it becomes a choice.

Paul points this out in Romans chapter 7, especially vs. 7-25 (not the pee analogy, but the Law and the need for a Savoir). Also, check out 1 Corinthians 6:9-12.

Well let's look at it from different point of view. I do agree that your God is loving and caring at times and then there is the old testament... where he is far from being loving and caring.

http://www.evidencebible.com/witnessingtool/whydoestheOTGodwrathNTGodlove.shtml

Ill have to get back to you on the rest of these... gotta go again.

Johnny

******************

Having said that, imagine that I'm god and tell you to place me above everyone and anything, love me more then anyone and anything etc etc. How is that not selfish? Look, it's pretty clear that he is a selfish god, there is no doubt about it, infact a lot of christians even admit it, so I really see no point in arguing this with you. Ok?



quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NO ONE IS WITHOUT SIN.

(1st John 1:8)

Now, whether you realized it or not, you made a very profound theological statement. Yes, they (we) are gods in the frame of reference that they (we) put their (our) ideas, choices, etc. over God. This is what sin is. (note: little 'g' vs. big 'G')



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I know what sin is. I have been through over 5 religions, thank you very much.

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name [was] Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.



quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Judging by your arguements, you have a weak mind. You need a Savior.

Me too.

MY arguements are likewise. When anyone places human ideas and understanding above God's Word (thus, above God), we are sinners in need of a Savior.. and that's ok since God has provided us with (the) One.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You got it a little bit mixed up here. Let me corrrect it for you, pal.



quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Judging by my arguements, I have a weak mind. I need a Savior.

You don't.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[ohhi]

I won't even bother quoting you on anything - it's a waste of time because you keep giving me poorly thought out answers which, of course if you look in the bible, you WILL find something to interprit it the way you want it to sound.

And as for that source you gave me... all it does is just mentions how mercifull your God is which is definately not the case in A LOT of cases.

You have your opinion and I have mine. You feel sorry for me and I fell sorry for you. You think I should accept Jesus I think all of you religious people should be institutionalized. End of debate.

[Dark_Magneto]

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

Hmm...I don't really know where to begin.

I am a Christian, quickly losing faith in Christianity. Not to say there there isn't a 'deity' (or isn't one), but I'm starting to consider that my religion holds no water.

The more I think about the concept of the Christian God, contradictions of the doctrines, the validity of the Bible, the more I doubt. One can't disagree that there is a very good argument, not just against the Christian religion, but against the concept of 'blind faith' itself (which Christianity is essentially founded upon).

I don't know what to do. I don't know if anyone else here has experienced something like this before, but it almost tears a guy apart in slowly discovering he has misled himself his entire life. Even now, my mind screams "See, you dope. I told you; you can't justify a meaning in the universe because it 'feels good' to do so. Because believing in a God makes you 'feel complete' doesn't necessarily mean one has to exist."

I just...don't know what to believe, what to think anymore. http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

Does anyone have any advice?

I advise you to take the Theist Questionnaire (http://tinyurl.com/qhzet).

[xtreem5150ahm]

quote:Originally posted by ohhi:

I won't even bother quoting you on anything - it's a waste of time because you keep giving me poorly thought out answers which, of course if you look in the bible, you WILL find something to interprit it the way you want it to sound.

And as for that source you gave me... all it does is just mentions how mercifull your God is which is definately not the case in A LOT of cases.

You have your opinion and I have mine. You feel sorry for me and I fell sorry for you. You think I should accept Jesus I think all of you religious people should be institutionalized. End of debate.

That's fine, but i have a question for you.

And, in fact, i am not looking for a response from you, just wanting you to answer it for yourself..

If i (or any Christian) had ended this discussion this way, how would you percieve it?

You may think that my answers to you were "poorly thought out answers". I felt the same about yours-- but mainly, think that is because it seems to me that you did not read the responses carefully. That's alright because, as a sower and serf, my job was not to convert you.

Christ Bless you,

Johnny

[jsaxton14]

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

That statement screams, "bullshit".

Bullshit on so many levels.. first and foremost, i find it hard to believe that you find your way outta TOTSE-land.

and ummm, not saying that "high roller strip clubs" dont exist, but i've been to a few strip clubs in my younger years, and i've seen only one that was "classy", but it was far from "high roller"... (dont know if it still exists.. that was about 21 years ago, but it was the Lollipop Lounge in Waikiki, Oahu.)

Lastly, i know it is not impossible that you may have met a political figure or two... and maybe even in a club, but i'm highly skeptical that it was anyone higher than local level... you know, bodyguards "and the like".

Snoopy has the last laugh. I'll miss the Bastard...

[ohhi]

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

That's fine, but i have a question for you.

And, in fact, i am not looking for a response from you, just wanting you to answer it for yourself..

If i (or any Christian) had ended this discussion this way, how would you percieve it?

You may think that my answers to you were "poorly thought out answers". I felt the same about yours-- but mainly, think that is because it seems to me that you did not read the responses carefully. That's alright because, as a sower and serf, my job was not to convert you.

Christ Bless you,

Johnny



How would I perceive what?

Even if you did try to convert me, it would not work because a lot of people have tried to "bring me back".

And please, there is no need for christ to bless me.

[xtreem5150ahm]

quote:Originally posted by ohhi:

[B]

Even if you did try to convert me, it would not work because a lot of people have tried to "bring me back".[B]

No, it's because conversion is not the job of humans, it's the job of the Holy Spirit.. and then only by your freewill.

[burymeag]

wow who is gonne read does long ass text u pasted, man trust me god excist, there many ways to get to him, christanity is the default for everyone but there many other ways to know him just do what u think is best for yourself and stop listing to what everyone else is saying.

[ohhi]

quote:Originally posted by burymeag:

wow who is gonne read does long ass text u pasted, man trust me god excist, there many ways to get to him, christanity is the default for everyone but there many other ways to know him just do what u think is best for yourself and stop listing to what everyone else is saying.



You are ABSOLUTELY sure of his existance...

[HellzShellz]

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

So I should be careful of the thoughts I think on because thinking about the wrong thoughts will only lead me astray?

Here is my opinion. In my thoughts, I search for truth. If, no matter what thoughts I think, I think them searching for truth, I will find it.



Brother man, I stopped reading right there. Not because it was long but because of what YOU said by your own admission. Here is my opinion. In my thoughts...

You think any topic that 'pops' in your head is something you need to reason? Why then does the Inspired Word of God tells us we need to CAST DOWN imaginations that exalt themselves AGAINST GOD, and BRING THEM into the OBEDIENCE of CHRIST?!

If you ever DID BELIEVE the Word of God, You would know Jesus said, "I AM THE WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE, NO MAN COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME."

You can say, "No man comes to the Father, Except THROUGH the Truth." You can say, "No man comes to the Father except through the way." You can say, "No man comes to the father except through the life." Life of what? Life of Christ. HAHA Glory! That's revelation, right there!

Note: I don't discourage you to QUESTION the Word, I ENCOURAGE you to QUESTION the Word knowing you'll Find the ANSWER in the Word, because you don't know the Answer and you need revelation of it, and GOD gives revelation. He gave us a promise, "Seek and you will find." You're not going to find the TRUTH without seeking THE TRUTH." Look up everything that Jesus is referred to in The WORD. He's even referred to as the Word, and you can put all of that in that passage.

"No man comes to the Father, but through The Word." "No man comes to the Father, but through the light."



[This message has been edited by HellzShellz (edited 03-08-2006).]

[ohhi]

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

... I ENCOURAGE you to QUESTION the Word knowing you'll Find the ANSWER...

That's the first conflict...

[TerminatorVinitiatoR]

you religious christian monkey.

give me some proof of "god" first.

if you can't give me concrete proof of the existance of "god" in your next post then i'm going to burn down 5 churches.

[HellzShellz]

quote:Originally posted by TerminatorVinitiatoR:

you religious christian monkey.

give me some proof of "god" first.

if you can't give me concrete proof of the existance of "god" in your next post then i'm going to burn down 5 churches.

Let me get this straight..

If the person really LIVES the life, they profess, and being transformed by the RENEWAL of their minds they're religious?

BUT, if a person claims to be a christian, and participates in all the worldly activities, they're 'christians'.

See how crafty the devil is?

I'll keep on keeping on reguardless, because I will push myself into the fullness of God.. but you have it backwards.

I'm not religious, I'm a Christian, i'm just not carnal enough for your approval, and I don't want to be.

[This message has been edited by HellzShellz (edited 03-08-2006).]

[ohhi]

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Let me get this straight..

If the person really LIVES the life, they profess, and being transformed by the RENEWAL of their minds they're religious?

BUT, if a person claims to be a christian, and participates in all the worldly activities, they're 'christians'.

See how crafty the devil is?

I'll keep on keeping on reguardless, because I will push myself into the fullness of God.. but you have it backwards.

I'm not religious, I'm a Christian, i'm just not carnal enough for your approval, and I don't want to be.





I think it is safe to say now that terminator has burnt down more then 5 churches, thanks to you.

[This message has been edited by ohhi (edited 03-08-2006).]

[TerminatorVinitiatoR]

the only thing you have proved, is that you are as crazy as charles manson but in a semi-socially accepted way.

[A_Lost_Cause]

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Let me get this straight...



I've read your posts. I think religion has helped you for a long time to get out of bed every morning and face a cold, often ruthless world. Believing in a benevolent deity (and all of the delusions associated with this pleasant fantasy) helps "takes the edge off." A lot of people are like you. Maybe it actually does you some good, depending on your life situation and personal disposition. But I think Elephantitis Man is on the right track. He's seeing and accepting that the metaphysical aspects of religion (gods, afterlives, etc.) are products of the ignorance of primitive cultures lacking the scientific sophistication to explain the world around them, and otherwise reflective of Man's inate capacity for comforting fantasy and self-delusion when it suits him (especially when strongly socially reinforced, as religions usually are.) I say Elephantitis Man is on the right track because I think the greater extent to which someone's able to look hard reality "square in the eye" (even if they don't like what they see), the better off they'll likely be in the long run. But that's just my opinion- it might not apply to you, and I'm sure it doesn't apply to many others. So if believing in God, Allah makes you a happier camper, and you think the trade-off is worth it, then "Go for it."

[HellzShellz]

quote:Originally posted by A_Lost_Cause:

I've read your posts. I think religion has helped you for a long time to get out of bed every morning and face a cold, often ruthless world. Believing in a benevolent deity (and all of the delusions associated with this pleasant fantasy) helps "takes the edge off." A lot of people are like you. Maybe it actually does you some good, depending on your life situation and personal disposition. But I think Elephantitis Man is on the right track. He's seeing and accepting that the metaphysical aspects of religion (gods, afterlives, etc.) are products of the ignorance of primitive cultures lacking the scientific sophistication to explain the world around them, and otherwise reflective of Man's inate capacity for comforting fantasy and self-delusion when it suits him (especially when strongly socially reinforced, as religions usually are.) I say Elephantitis Man is on the right track because I think the greater extent to which someone's able to look hard reality "square in the eye" (even if they don't like what they see), the better off they'll likely be in the long run. But that's just my opinion- it might not apply to you, and I'm sure it doesn't apply to many others. So if believing in God, Allah makes you a happier camper, and you think the trade-off is worth it, then "Go for it."

Like I said, Brother man. I'm not RELIGIOUS. I don't believe because it kept me alive, I BELIEVE because I received a message of faith. You think you know, but you have NO IDEA.

It's a billion times harder to have faith than it is to be an unbeliever. It's easy to doubt, and not believe, it's HARDER to BELIEVE AND HAVE FAITH. Why? Because God doesn't work with your mind.. You can't REASON God out.. God doesn't make sense to the natural mind, He's supernatural. We're taught to reason things out, and as Bill Winston said, "education was NEVER meant to come before revelation". But that happened when State and Church separated.. The enemy trained a soceity that would learn to rely on their own ability to reason, rather than to trust in God. Because what happens in the NATURAL is a manifestation of the SUPERNATURAL.

EX: A tree moves back and forth. Why? Because of the WIND. Something that you can't see, causing a reaction in the natual, of what you can see. I can see the tree move, not the wind blow, but the tree is moving, because the wind is blowing. You don't know me figured out, and you don't have God figured out either.

"The fool says in his heart, there is no God."

Faith is GOD speaking into darkness and saying, "LET THERE BE LIGHT".(Hebrews 11:3) The original translation says, "Have the faith of God" Or "Have the God kind of faith".

See when you speak the Word of God, Circumstance HAVE TO CONFORM TO HIS WORD. God said, "LET THERE BE LIGHT." and THERE WAS LIGHT. Why? That's the God kind of faith. God gave us His Word, his Promises. We have to BELIEVE them.

Meditation on the Word of God, or the Scripture reference

Revelation of the Word of God

Manifestation of the Word

See, Christ said, "If you've seen me you've seen the Father."

Christ was/is/is to come GOD made FLESH. The WORD made flesh. Christ was/is/is to come GOD manifested into the FLESH or human form.



[This message has been edited by HellzShellz (edited 03-08-2006).]

[A_Lost_Cause]

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Like I said, Brother man. I'm not RELIGIOUS. I don't believe because it kept me alive, I BELIEVE because I received a message of faith.

Well, if your beliefs are Christian-based, I'd call that religion. But no matter. Yeah, I have a "natural mind" evolved as part of my "natural body" and as far as I can tell, the only things it has a capacity to sense and understand are also quite natural. That being the case, science coincides by far best with what I percieve as reality. So therein lies our difference. If you can comprehend the metaphysical (or "super"-natural) whereas I cannot, you've definately got one up on me! So, whatever works for you. If belief in a Christian god gives you a wide open receiver in the endzone- by all means, call that play and throw the bomb. Don't mind me if I can't even see the stadium.

[A_Lost_Cause]

APOLOGIES!

I just created a user name here, and I see I chose something awful close to a forum moderator... freaky (just thought it sounded good.) I'm off to work, but I'll pick another user name and post tonight.

[TerminatorVinitiatoR]

Hellzshellz: please shutup.

[Surf_Bum]

OK, no more A_Lost_Cause, now reincarnated as Surf_Bum to avoid confusion, but my views on religion still aren't very positive whether I'm riding a tube er' not. More tonight when have time.

[burymeag]

Yes god is there for sure,just stop taking your feelings to seriouslys, the body and the soul are different the mind controls the senses but inteligents controls the mind, and the soul controls the intligence

[hyroglyphx]

quote:Originally posted by A_Lost_Cause:

I've read your posts. I think religion has helped you for a long time to get out of bed every morning and face a cold, often ruthless world. Believing in a benevolent deity (and all of the delusions associated with this pleasant fantasy) helps "takes the edge off."

I think you are assuming alot about Shellz. First of all, she is genuinely in love with Jesus. I can see it in the fruits she bears. Secondly, perhaps this helps some people out. But if you have delude yourself into believing, then you don't believe, and probably never did. And there are only a few people that truly know who Jesus is. There are a handful of people who fall away after truly knowing Him. So, those that claim to know Him and still fall away, refer to Matthew 13 (Parable of the sower).



But I think Elephantitis Man is on the right track. He's seeing and accepting that the metaphysical aspects of religion (gods, afterlives, etc.) are products of the ignorance of primitive cultures lacking the scientific sophistication to explain the world around them, and otherwise reflective of Man's inate capacity for comforting fantasy and self-delusion when it suits him (especially when strongly socially reinforced, as religions usually are.)

What makes you think that your ancestors are primitive? Knowledge begats knowledge. We keep adding onto what has already been discovered. Don't assume that we are somehow smarted because of our technology. We would be at ground zero had the wheel not been invented. If we were transported back in time, we would just as clueless as they would in how to invent a space shuttle. Without their discoveries, we could have never made ours. It has nothing to do with a higher or lower intelligence.

I say Elephantitis Man is on the right track because I think the greater extent to which someone's able to look hard reality "square in the eye" (even if they don't like what they see), the better off they'll likely be in the long run. But that's just my opinion- it might not apply to you, and I'm sure it doesn't apply to many others. So if believing in God, Allah makes you a happier camper, and you think the trade-off is worth it, then "Go for it."

He would still be miserable without God in his life. Right now he is wrestling against principalities and powers we can barely comprehend. He will continue to live in misery until he finally makes a real decision. I know where he's at. In the beginning of my walk it was the same for me. There is no one more acquanited with grief than the 'lukewarm' Christian. The strong Christian is happy and secure with God, and the atheist is content in his unbelief. But it is the lukewarm Christan, the carnal Christian, who knows what he ought to be doing, but does not complete it. His duplicity causes him to be torn between two loves. The love of self, and the love for God.

Elephant, I'm not going to tell you the squishy, tolerant, politically correct thing. Because it does nothing for you. You'll never grow under those circumstances. If I told you that everything is gonna work itself out, I would just be placating you. Its like neglecting to tell a child to stay away from the edge of the cliff because its dangerous. Should I say, "Its alright Billy, you'll figure it out on your own?' Is that real love? Or is real love, "Billy do not go by that edge! I don't want to see you get hurt!" That's real love. Real love isn't afraid of offending someone for the sake of what is truly important. Nonetheless, I am sympathetic to your dilema. Don't misunderstand me. And Lost, I know exactly what you're saying. Even still, I will tell Elephant, get back in your Word, get back to a good church that is going to feed you Truth, and not a crap church that compromises. Seek fellowship. Finally, pray... Perhaps you have not, because you ask not.

As a Christian, remember this metaphor as it relates to the world: As a Christian, we live in the world, but we are not of the world. Much like a lake and a boat. Its important that we be on the lake, in the boat. What we don't want is to have the lake in the boat because we will drown in it. The point is, if you are trying to have one foot in the world, and one foot in the Word, eventually the world is gonna drag you in. Wear the full armor, as Ephesians says. Remember who you are, remember your first love, and remember that moment when all that vexed you was gone. Come back to that sobering moment that so many will sadly, never find.

[Digital_Savior]

ELEPHANTITIS MAN

I am not sure what you have or have not derived from the advice of the many here, but I have a channel on IRC designed for this very conversation.

I'd like to invite you in, without revealing it to the whole world, so please contact me using the following methods so I can direct you to the channel:

AIM: desired hush

MSN: [email protected]

Many people you know from totse go there...kAtE-, Sephiroth, TheAtomiser, and several others.

Look forward to seeing you there, and having a legitimate discussion about where you are in your spiritual walk, where your doubts are derived from, and so on.

God bless.

[Surf_Bum]

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

I think you are assuming alot about Shellz. First of all, she is genuinely in love with Jesus. I can see it in the fruits she bears. Secondly, perhaps this helps some people out. But if you have delude yourself into believing, then you don't believe, and probably never did…



Unfairly assuming? Maybe. If Shellz senses these things, it's not through conventional methods of perception- in other words, it's not through valid analysis of events in the world in which we live- of this, I'm satisfied. What's that leave? Well, does she (and you) have a way to "sense" things that I (and many others) lack? Maybe. But I wouldn't bet on it. My view of the world lacks gods and spirits, and as I've grown older and experienced more, I've found that this view becomes more-and-more consistent with what I observe. That's been a telltale sign of both "You're on the right track" and "Right answer!" in all of the questions I've wrestled with, and all of the problems I've worked on solving throughout my life. But it's everyone's prerogative to decide for themselves. If spirituality benefits you and Shellz, both of you should stick with it. I'm an atheist, and I'm comfortable with my conclusions. If E Man similarly doesn't see what you purportedly see, maybe he should consider a rational view of life, and make the best of it. Above all, be honest with oneself.

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

What makes you think that your ancestors are primitive?... It has nothing to do with a higher or lower intelligence.

I didn't say they were "stupid", I said they were "ignorant"... and they were as compared to 21st Century Man, as surely we will be as well, as compared to Man of hundreds or thousands of years in the future (assuming Man makes it that far.) In such ignorance, Man resorted to all sorts of paranormal/metaphysical speculations to explain many commonplace things understandable in simple terms through modern science. The ancient Romans almost all had body lice, and they thought lice prevented disease! Why? People would get fevers, and the lice would drop-off (finding high body temperatures uncomfortable.) They correlated sickness with a lack of lice. Ignorant? Yes. Stupid? No. Not considering that they had no understanding of microbiology or infectious disease. Today we know better. This applies to many things commonly misperceived in the centuries and millenniums of Man's past. Audio and visual hallucinations could be taken as evidence of devine prophesy, and hence considered profoundly significant. Stupid? No- they just didn't have a knowledge base adequate to comprehend the nature of these things. Today, modern medicine enables better understanding of mental illness. The list goes on and on.

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

He would still be miserable without God in his life... Elephant, I'm not going to tell you the squishy, tolerant, politically correct thing...Because it does nothing for you...

I think you’re sincere, hyro, and unlike some atheists, I acknowledge that religion has positive respects, in the social sense, that secular organizations of this day lack. If E-Man finds this aspect of religion beneficial to him, perhaps he could benefit through involvement. If it were organized and proliferated, a movement like Humanism could fill that gap. But society's a long way from that point. If he finds the metaphysical claims incorporated in Christianity, or the manipulations and hypocrisy distasteful, as do I, he might better seek to fill those needs elsewhere. I don't lack empathy for the struggling, and equating atheism with a lack of ethics (or vice versa) is just plain wrong.

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

As a Christian, remember this metaphor as it relates to the world: As a Christian, we live in the world, but we are not of the world...

For me, dealing with problems and issues "of the world" is a full-time job, and the non-secular doesn't help the matter. Doing my best to be rational and honest with myself does, in my own experience, and the avenues one pursues with that in mind are more likely to yield results that are best along life's journey.

[Abrahim]

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

Hmm...I don't really know where to begin.

I am a Christian, quickly losing faith in Christianity. Not to say there there isn't a 'deity' (or isn't one), but I'm starting to consider that my religion holds no water.



I'd like to add you to my MSN, AIM, or YAHOO!

[Spungo]

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

Just live a fun life without bothering with the banal questions of the weak minded. People think asking themselves the "when" "how" and "why" questions makes them smart. And people answering the "when "how" and "why" questions think they're even smarter.

It really matters fuck all. The world does not work that way. Let me give you an example. There are worthless weenies who don't do anything but debate on social and political issues. They hold fuck knows how many degrees, and think they're the shit. They've wasted their pathetic lives on their pathetic ideologies. Do they make a difference? No, the fucking don't.

Translation:

I truly failed the living shit out of university because I was too busy PARTYING but really it's cuz I didn't know what the fuck my political science or history professors were talking about but really it's cuz I don't care and I'm HARDCORE and KEWL cuz I drink like a maniac and do tons of drugs. I DON'T GIVE A FUCK ABOUT LIFE I'M KEWL HURRRRR. Also, I live with my parents and I'm 42 years old. I lure children in my van down by the river with promises of candy and my chocolate-covered penis.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

This made my day. That is the reasonable position to take, and I'm happy that you were able to "reach" it so to speak.

That's the most an a rational human being would ask of you: to question your beliefs with the use of logic and reason, and then base your conclusions/position on what you find - not the other way around.

I only ask that if you reach a conclusion/position you post it here so that we may examine it as rational or irrational as well.

Unless the individual in question subscribes to Marxist ideology. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

[Rust]

Says the moron who just replied to a month old post with a meaningless oneliner. Good one.

If you have something to say besides that pathetic excuse for a reply, by all means say it.

[Spungo]

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Says the moron who just replied to a month old post with a meaningless oneliner. Good one.

If you have something to say besides that pathetic excuse for a reply, by all means say it.

My intellectual ego has been throughly humbled before your supreme argumentative talents. Did you spend all night coming up with that one?

[Rust]

No, there was no need to, your post was that stupid.

[Abrahim]

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

No, there was no need to, your post was that stupid.

*Laugheding*