View Full Version : A god must exist. My reasoning
FidelCastro
2006-02-04, 23:53
I'm not talking about the Christian God but I mean A god must exist. Before the new world was discovered by Europeans, it was inhabibited by indigenous peoples. They all believed in a god, the Europeans believed in a god, east indians do, asians, muslims etc. They all believe in a god so it something that must be analayzed more deeply. Maybe god is a higher being who manifests itself in a way that each human can deal with. Like a Q of sorts. maybe it created the big bang and then evolution took over. No on can really know.
Digital_Savior
2006-02-04, 23:54
Q !!! Trekkies rule. lol
Some Old Drunk Guy
2006-02-05, 00:21
Ive thought about that...
But i can answer that with the reply "they only used a god to explain why the sun goes across the sky" etc etc
Fundokiller
2006-02-05, 00:42
define god.
1. Ignorance, therefore god.
2. Argumentum Ad Populum
"Bandwagon": the fallacy of attempting to prove a conclusion on the grounds that all or most people think or believe it is true.
Most, many, or all persons believe statement p is true.
Statement p is true."
Example of the ad populum fallacy:
"St. Augustine wrote, 'For with the exception of a few in whom nature is excessively depraved, the whole human race confesses God to be author of the world.' Note, as well, the ad hominem implications of this argument."
http://philosophy.lander.edu/logic/popular.html
[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 02-05-2006).]
It's a pretty basic concept. The idea that there is someone bigger than you watching over you fits well with the parent/child and leader/follower structure of early man.
The idea of an omnipotent purely spiritual God seems rather new (comparatively). Most old religions (including Hebrew) saw God as more of a super human, containing human emotions and beliefs and often being a semi physical being.
Talking animals exist in many religions. Based on the OP talking animals exist.
Everyone loves having an imaginary friend to turn to.
Just because people have always believed in a God does not mean one exists. There have always been people within those groups who do not believe in a God. It works both ways.
Your "reasoning" sucks.
chubbyman25
2006-02-06, 08:34
In reality, there is absolutely no way to "prove" that God doesn't exist, and there is no way to "prove" that He does.
Edit: fixed.
[This message has been edited by chubbyman25 (edited 02-06-2006).]
Flaming Shadow
2006-02-06, 10:43
You should look into the big bang theory before you talk about it :P (even though I may be wrong )
The big bang sucks in everything until its too much and it explodes and the process starts over again.
Heres the thing, who created us , say it COULD be a big bang , that sstarted everything, then what started that. god? then what started god. Even though the bible says god is forever. I find it impossible for it to just be there. Something has to of created it, which is why I dont know how everything started. I think god is something that people believe in to answer their questions.
AsylumSeaker
2006-02-06, 15:53
Nothing in reality has ever been observed to truly have a beginning or an end. Things change form or get disassembled, but the parts that made it up still exist. I don't see why the universe as a whole should be any different.
God is just a word. It's defined by words like omnipotence, infinity, etc. Those words are used in extremes, to depict something that hasn't been proven to exist. Mathematical theories and such.
Things like infinity and randomness are really hard to grasp for your ever day human brain. People see infinity as the ultimate extreme, and usually associate it with a very large number. This has got jack shit to do with infinity. Infinity is a theoretical "thing", that doesn't abide by limits and rules. Seen as how nothing infinite has ever been found, it's really hard to grasp the idea of infinity. There are those "loop" theories, but is the idea of going in circles really an infinity?
God is just a word, and depending on your definition of the word, it may or may not exist. However, you also have to remember to think of the definition of the word existence. If it exists in people's heads, it can be real through their actions. I can tell you 100% positive that the "Christian" God is grade A bullshit. He exists through Christians. They have his image in their heads, and through their actions he exists. Let me tell you, He is no God. Annihilate the Christians, and you have Annihilated their God. Same goes for all the other "Gods".
Basically, all Gods are very dependable on humanity, at least by my definition of the word. As humanity evolves, our Gods will change, and one day, they will die out, when all humans cease being stupid fucking idiot cunts.
Lou Reed
2006-02-06, 19:02
quote:Originally posted by Rust:
1. Ignorance, therefore god.
2. Argumentum Ad Populum
"Bandwagon": the fallacy of attempting to prove a conclusion on the grounds that all or most people think or believe it is true.
Most, many, or all persons believe statement p is true.
Statement p is true."
Example of the ad populum fallacy:
"St. Augustine wrote, 'For with the exception of a few in whom nature is excessively depraved, the whole human race confesses God to be author of the world.' Note, as well, the ad hominem implications of this argument."
http:// philosophy .lander.ed u/logic/popular.html (http: //philosop hy.lander. edu/logic/ popular.ht ml)
Yeah thats true but its forced symposium as such.
Look it...
the bible says that based on faith two or more believers may gain gods favour by law, in the fact that they truly trust in and adhere to his promise
http://www.spaceandmotion.com/Philosophy.htm
take drugs
Sheherazade
2006-02-06, 19:16
quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:
God is just a word. It's defined by words like omnipotence, infinity, etc. Those words are used in extremes, to depict something that hasn't been proven to exist. Mathematical theories and such.
Things like infinity and randomness are really hard to grasp for your ever day human brain. People see infinity as the ultimate extreme, and usually associate it with a very large number. This has got jack shit to do with infinity. Infinity is a theoretical "thing", that doesn't abide by limits and rules. Seen as how nothing infinite has ever been found, it's really hard to grasp the idea of infinity. There are those "loop" theories, but is the idea of going in circles really an infinity?
God is just a word, and depending on your definition of the word, it may or may not exist. However, you also have to remember to think of the definition of the word existence. If it exists in people's heads, it can be real through their actions. I can tell you 100% positive that the "Christian" God is grade A bullshit. He exists through Christians. They have his image in their heads, and through their actions he exists. Let me tell you, He is no God. Annihilate the Christians, and you have Annihilated their God. Same goes for all the other "Gods".
Basically, all Gods are very dependable on humanity, at least by my definition of the word. As humanity evolves, our Gods will change, and one day, they will die out, when all humans cease being stupid fucking idiot cunts.
It is beyond our human understanding.
Killer Instinct
2006-02-06, 20:27
God is nature.
quote:Originally posted by Sheherazade:
It is beyond our human understanding.
The fuck are you talking about?
He is saying that Gods are - and have always been - created by people. Without humans believing in a God, there is no God, because that's all God is. Merely a belief.
Lou Reed
2006-02-06, 21:08
quote:Originally posted by Killer Instinct:
God is nature.
you are stupid Killer Instinct
Huggy Bear
2006-02-06, 21:12
This is what I always thought. I used to lean towards atheism but now I'm agnostic. I do not know whether a God exists or not - no human being does. This is why I do not believe in atheism or religion, because as far as I'm concerned, they're both beliefs.
But anyway, it's strange how almost every civilisation has believed in some sort of supernatural being - a God. I'm not saying this proves the existence of a supernatural being because it doesn't - it is just circumstancial evidence. For example, the Egyptians believed in Gods, as did the Greeks, the Romans, etc, etc, and they have founded some of the greatest civilisations ever seen on the planet.
Is it just a coincidence?
[This message has been edited by Huggy Bear (edited 02-06-2006).]
quote:Originally posted by Huggy Bear:
This is what I always thought. I used to lean towards atheism but now I'm agnostic. I do not know whether a God exists or not - no human being does. This is why I do not believe in atheism or religion, because as far as I'm concerned, they're both beliefs.
But anyway, it's strange how almost every civilisation has believed in some sort of supernatural being - a God. I'm not saying this proves the existence of a supernatural being because it doesn't - it is just circumstancial evidence. For example, the Egyptians believed in Gods, as did the Greeks, the Romans, etc, etc, and they have founded some of the greatest civilisations ever seen on the planet.
Is it just a coincidence?
It's not a coincidence. It's the solution to ignorance.
All throughout history, there have always been scientific unknowns. The Greeks didn't know how the sun rose and set, so they said the Gods did it, and attributed it to Helios and Apollo - Gods of the sun, who were believed to ride a chariot across the sky, pulling the sun. The Romans had no idea where lightning came from, so, of course, it must have come from the Gods. Thus came Jupiter, and Zeus for the Greeks. And so on, onto modern times, where harder questions are asked, like 'where did the universe come from?' Which, as follows history, gets answered by 'God did it!'
It's called the God of the Gaps argument. Some Old Drunk Guy brought it up in the second reply.
As Snoopy said, as humanity evolves, Gods change, and eventually die out, which get replaced by newer Gods, due to the ignorance of humanity.
[This message has been edited by Zykaz (edited 02-06-2006).]
Killer Instinct
2006-02-06, 21:41
quote:Originally posted by Lou Reed:
you are stupid Killer Instinct
explain your reasoning.
Lou Reed
2006-02-06, 22:06
nature is a word,
there are no words for god
fuck off
Timothy Thomas '
2006-02-07, 03:32
He is saying God is everything. Everything exists in just pure energy and existence. This doesnt mean "God" is a tall guy with a beard who watches everything everyone does and controls all. Its just existence, everything to be seen or not seen, touched or not touched, known or unknown.Thoughts in our heads, Trees,Cocaine,Methane gas, it doesnt matter. Stop thinking of God as a person, and think of God as a belief.
[This message has been edited by Timothy Thomas ' (edited 02-07-2006).]
AsylumSeaker
2006-02-07, 07:43
Science has also sprung up in different unrelated societys, even on seperate continents.
Ravendust
2006-02-07, 12:32
Old story..
Huggy Bear
2006-02-07, 22:47
quote:Originally posted by Zykaz:
It's not a coincidence. It's the solution to ignorance.
All throughout history, there have always been scientific unknowns. The Greeks didn't know how the sun rose and set, so they said the Gods did it, and attributed it to Helios and Apollo - Gods of the sun, who were believed to ride a chariot across the sky, pulling the sun. The Romans had no idea where lightning came from, so, of course, it must have come from the Gods. Thus came Jupiter, and Zeus for the Greeks. And so on, onto modern times, where harder questions are asked, like 'where did the universe come from?' Which, as follows history, gets answered by 'God did it!'
It's called the God of the Gaps argument. Some Old Drunk Guy brought it up in the second reply.
As Snoopy said, as humanity evolves, Gods change, and eventually die out, which get replaced by newer Gods, due to the ignorance of humanity.
Good reasoning.
Whirlwind
2006-02-08, 01:23
Cause and effect. Something started everything off. The question is what? Why? And was it CONSCIENCE of its actions.
quote:Originally posted by Whirlwind:
Cause and effect. Something started everything off. The question is what? Why? And was it CONSCIENCE of its actions.
For years humans couldn't see outside of their community's... They believed they were God's people... nothing existed outside...
Then humans couldn't see outside of their planet... They believed that the planet was special and nothing existed outside...
Now we can't see outside of our universe and we believe our universe is special... So special it has to have been created from nothing... Because nothing exists outside it...
As we conquer the curiosities of science we have still yet to conquer our own egos...
The universe currently doesn't have a end, did it have a beginning at all? Is there really nothing outside the universe and was it created from nothing... I doubt it, we're not that special... Eventually they'll discover the physics for what is outside... And whatever that is will be special and nothing will exist beyond that...
Metalligod
2006-02-08, 19:03
quote:Originally posted by Rust:
1. Ignorance, therefore god.
I'm getting nauseous..... Rust and I think more and more alike as the days pass.
Though I do believe there is a (One True) god, I don't believe that there MUST be a god. Truthfully, I don't really believe there is, that is, I don't have "faith". I only HOPE that God exists, just not exactly as the bible makes Him out to be.
Fundokiller
2006-02-09, 02:11
God is a towel.
Towels exist
therefore god exists.
I am the Walrus-
2006-02-09, 02:58
there is something more than us,maybe not god persay,but most definatley a creator. there is no other explanation that seems viable to me. i am well learned in most areas,maybe not spelling,ha. but i refuse to believe we evolved from a primordial soup of nothingness. we did not become humans from ancient prokaryotes,and yes,we are rather resemblant to primates,and maybe we came from these lesser beings,but someone created them. we did not come from an unexplained bang in the sky billions of years ago. its all too convienient that earth developes perfectly and we are just the right distance from the sun to support life the way we are,and the seasons work out perfectly,not to cold and not to hot,slight changes in our distance to the sun,there would be nothing,and having a perfect atmosphere suited to all of our bodies. nature works in harmony,nature did not create this harmony,something greater than us has designed this perfect eco-world. it may not be intellectually perfect,but environmentaly,we live in the perfect environment. call me ignorant,but these are my beliefs and noone has the right to look down on them,only examine and think. only he who is of lesser character and intelligence degrades another humans philosophy and true beliefs.
quote:Originally posted by I am the Walrus-:
there is something more than us,maybe not god persay,but most definatley a creator. there is no other explanation that seems viable to me. i am well learned in most areas,maybe not spelling,ha. but i refuse to believe we evolved from a primordial soup of nothingness. we did not become humans from ancient prokaryotes,and yes,we are rather resemblant to primates,and maybe we came from these lesser beings,but someone created them. we did not come from an unexplained bang in the sky billions of years ago. its all too convienient that earth developes perfectly and we are just the right distance from the sun to support life the way we are,and the seasons work out perfectly,not to cold and not to hot,slight changes in our distance to the sun,there would be nothing,and having a perfect atmosphere suited to all of our bodies. nature works in harmony,nature did not create this harmony,something greater than us has designed this perfect eco-world. it may not be intellectually perfect,but environmentaly,we live in the perfect environment. call me ignorant,but these are my beliefs and noone has the right to look down on them,only examine and think. only he who is of lesser character and intelligence degrades another humans philosophy and true beliefs.
Your reasoning that we must have been created since everything on Earth fits us perfectly is faulty. The reason that everything on and around Earth is perfectly suited to allow complex and intelligent life is that if things were different, there would be no one around to make that observation. Think about all the billions, or even more planets in our universe. Out of all of these, you would expect at least a couple, most likely many more, to have close to exactly the right conditions for life to develop, since it is such a large sampling of planets. Now, if on one of these planets intelligent life develops, as it did on Earth, it isnt some incredibly unlikely event that everything suits us perfectly, it is simply because if everything didnt suit us, we wouldn't be here to make that observation. This is a version of the anthropic principle if you want to learn more about it.
quote:Originally posted by Flaming Shadow:
You should look into the big bang theory before you talk about it :P (even though I may be wrong )
The big bang sucks in everything until its too much and it explodes and the process starts over again.
...
The big bang didn't suck anything in. Know that the big bang did not occur at a specific place; rather, the entire volume of the universe existed in a high-density, high-temperature state called the big bang.
The theory for what you described is called oscillating universe theory. This theory requires a closed universe, and for gravity to rule. This means the universe can only contract (big crunch) if it is closed (not flat or curved) and gravity must win the battle over dark energy. Recent studies (1998) show that the expansion of the universe is not slowing down, but speeding up due to this dark energy. Oscillating universe theory is no longer taken seriously.
To the original poster: Although I'm not quite sure what your reasoning was/is, here is something from Bertrand Russell for you to think about.
First Cause Theory
The question of who made me, earth, the universe, etc.. cannot be answered because it immediately suggest the further question who made god. Some basic conclusions can be drawn from this.
God made everything, and always existed
God made our universe and he was created himself.
Nothing created the universe, it always just existed.
Sadly, most believe in the first statement. Even though their logic for believing in the first should make it easy to believe in the third, they usually can't/won't accept the possibility of the third statment. By this, Russel meant: if it is feasible to believe that god created the universe without god being created, then it is feasible that the universe had always just existed without a god.
Therefore, in order to believe that a god existed and created the universe; you must also believe that god had a creator, and god's creator had a creator, and so on...
The first cause theory is of course purely philosophical, but a little common sense never hurt anybody. The idea that all things must first be created is human, thus prone to error.
quote:
Originally posted by I am the Walrus-
...its all too convienient that earth developes perfectly and we are just the right distance from the sun to support life the way we are,and the seasons work out perfectly,not to cold and not to hot,slight changes in our distance to the sun,there would be nothing,and having a perfect atmosphere suited to all of our bodies. nature works in harmony,nature did not create this harmony,something greater than us has designed this perfect eco-world....
quote:
Originally posted by Danreil
... it isnt some incredibly unlikely event that everything suits us perfectly, it is simply because if everything didnt suit us, we wouldn't be here to make that observation.
Perfect.
[This message has been edited by 1981 (edited 02-09-2006).]
AsylumSeaker
2006-02-09, 03:55
Earths position as a planet suitable for life isn't unique.
quote:Originally posted by FidelCastro:
I'm not talking about the Christian God but I mean A god must exist. Before the new world was discovered by Europeans, it was inhabibited by indigenous peoples. They all believed in a god, the Europeans believed in a god, east indians do, asians, muslims etc. They all believe in a god so it something that must be analayzed more deeply. Maybe god is a higher being who manifests itself in a way that each human can deal with. Like a Q of sorts. maybe it created the big bang and then evolution took over. No on can really know.
On a similar note, once upon a time almost everybody believe the Earth was at the centre of the universe and the sun and the planets revolved around it...Find this familiar?
Doesn't make it true though
quote:Originally posted by FidelCastro:
I'm not talking about the Christian God but I mean A god must exist. Before the new world was discovered by Europeans, it was inhabibited by indigenous peoples. They all believed in a god, the Europeans believed in a god, east indians do, asians, muslims etc. They all believe in a god so it something that must be analayzed more deeply. Maybe god is a higher being who manifests itself in a way that each human can deal with. Like a Q of sorts. maybe it created the big bang and then evolution took over. No on can really know.
The same thing can be said about "Dragons".
Everyone...chinese, europeans, egyptians, irish, celtics, american tribes, all from different continents, seperated by the oceans...all have tons of drawing and stories of serpents/dragons that breath fire, fly, etc.
Cultures and civilizations who have NEVER had any contact with each other, all had stories of dragons. So how can that be?
Does this mean it is true? Have you ever seen a dragon? Why havent' they found dragon bones?
[This message has been edited by Aeon (edited 02-11-2006).]
"What man is in need of he makes his God, what man wishes to be he makes his God"...
Who said this? I forget.
Lost Boy
2006-02-12, 00:34
We are in the Matrix -this is all a game
Clarphimous
2006-02-12, 00:38
quote:Originally posted by Twiggy:
"What man is in need of he makes his God, what man wishes to be he makes his God"...
Who said this? I forget.
Google says: Ludwig Feuerbach
quote:Originally posted by Aeon:
The same thing can be said about "Dragons".
Everyone...chinese, europeans, egyptians, irish, celtics, american tribes, all from different continents, seperated by the oceans..all have tons of drawing and stories of serpents/dragons that breath fire, fly, etc.
Cultures and civilizations who have NEVER had any contact with each other, all had stories of dragons. So how can that be?
Does this mean it is true? Have you ever seen a dragon? Why havent' they found dragon bones?
Well, dinosaurs....men live with dinosaurs during prehistory http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)
dontdrinkbleach
2006-02-14, 11:58
God is the universal method of control. What easier way to keep underlings in line than telling them they are going to some form of hel if they don't do what you say.