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Digital_Savior
2006-01-25, 20:23
A friend of mine wrote this, and I thought I would share, since it's an interesting read.

She is Egyptian, and is consumed with it's culture and history, just to give you a little bit of background.

Yes, it's long, but she's got some very good information in here.

Enjoy.

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I have sometimes been involved in heated theological discussions between religious (i.e, conservative) friends and more secular (i.e., liberal) comrades. Many secular individuals scoff at the stories contained in the Holy Book, and believe that the tales are simply myths. I do not attend church regularly, and have read only the parts of the Bible interesting to me personally (namely the sections related to Egypt, the Gospels, Revelation, and the Psalms). However, I have been in the position to bolster the conservative point of view with a few choice archaeological facts I have discovered as a student of ancient Egypt.

There are several biblical stories that directly involve Egypt. Interestingly, many of the elements in these tales are true, based on current egyptological evidence. The purpose of this essay is to highlight specific parts of the Bible and compare them to what is known about the history and culture of ancient Egypt. I will also add that Egypt is an intriguing place to study. There are just enough written records present to get some sense of events and people, but not enough to confirm or refute specific theories. The information I provide represents what is agreed to by many Egyptologists (including the ones I most respect), but by no means all. Equally valid alternative explanations are available.

The main source information for the following sections is from The Great Courses on Tape – The History of Ancient Egypt by Bob Brier. This essay will not detail the entire biblical stories (as I do not propose to be a theologian), though it will cite the specific passages discussed. I will not debate articles of faith, either. This essay is offered only to provide information to interested individuals.

Joseph in Egypt (Genesis 37-50)

The first tale to be analyzed is my personal favorite, Joseph in Egypt. That is because the Egyptians (though there are a few bad ones) actually come out well in the end.

The basic story is that Joseph has a God-given gift: the ability to interpret dreams accurately. His brothers, jealous of his position as father’s favorite, sell Joseph into slavery. Joseph eventually lands in Egypt, the slave of a high official named Potiphar. Potiphar’s wife lusts after the new slave, and is annoyed that Joseph will not betray his master. Upset, the wife accuses Joseph of a rape attempt, and he lands in jail. Joseph stays in jail until he correctly interprets the dreams of two other jail-mates, who are highly placed court officials. One of the officials is put to death, while the other returns to court and tells a troubled Pharaoh of Joseph’s amazing gift. It seems Pharaoh has been having evil dreams. The magicians of the court can’t seem to figure out the meaning of their leader’s nightmares. Joseph is called upon to interpret the dreams, which foretell of a 7-year famine. Impressed with the forecast, Pharaoh mandates that Joseph prepare Egypt for the famine. Joseph successfully does so, and is reunited, happily and successfully, with his brothers and his father after they come to Egypt in search for food.

The points in the egyptological record that confirm important elements of this story are:

• Potiphar’s name seems to be derived from a real name in ancient Egypt, Pa-di-Ra (given by Ra). Ra was a chief solar deity of the ancient Egyptians.

• The story uses the word “magician” for the Egyptian interpreters of dreams who failed to perform for Pharaoh. The Coptic word for magician is ses-per-ankh (Coptic is the language that evolved directly from the ancient Egyptian tongue, which is spelled using Greek letters). Ses-per-ankh means “scribe of the house of life”. This term also is used for priest, and priests were specifically in charge of dream interpretation in ancient Egypt.

• An Egyptian Dream book confirms Joseph’s skill at interpreting prophetic dreams. The Pharaoh’s dreams are not in the ses-per-ankh’s dream book, explaining why priests could not interpret the dreams.

• A stela on Sehel Island tells of a 7-year famine resulting from the Nile’s low water level.

• Joseph is given a signet ring of authority by the Pharaoh. This is a typical Egyptian item indicating rank and power.

• Joseph is given the Egyptian name – Zaph-nath-paa-neah, which transliterates into something along the lines of He-who-will-save, as told in the Bible. His wife, Asenath, also has what seems to be a classically derived Egyptian name (As-en-neith, She of Neith – Neith being a highly revered female war deity).

• While Joseph is organizing the Egyptians to prepare for the famine, they shout “Abrek” at him. This is close to an ancient Egyptian phrase – Ab-er-ek – meaning heart-to-you (similar to “more power to you” in our language).

• There is a phrase Joseph uses while chatting with his brothers at the end of the story – God has made me Father to Pharaoh. This title, God’s Father, was actually in use in ancient Egypt, and specifically denotes highly placed and trusted royal officials. Reasonably, this would have been one of the Egyptian titles given to Joseph.

• There is a passage that Joseph goes to Goshen and buys land and cattle from the Pharaoh, but not the priests. This is true; priests were allowed to accumulate land, a practice that actually caused serious economic problems for Egypt in their later history. These restrictive economic practices were partially addressed when the Greeks restructured the Egyptian bureaucracy after Alexander the Great took over. After the Greeks removed restrictive land ownership practices, Egypt experienced an economic boom that lasted well into the Roman period.

• Archaeological remains in a Northern Egyptian site, Tell ed Dab’a, turn up utensils, pottery, and burial wares that are essentially Palestinian, not Egyptian, in influence. . This dig site is in the area that is thought to be ancient Goshen.

• When Joseph’s father, Jacob, died, the bible indicates there was 40 days for embalming and 70 days for mourning. These time periods exactly correspond to what is now known about human mummification as practiced by the ancient Egyptians. The first 40 days were used to prepare the body (i.e., remove the internal organs) and drying the cadaver in dry natron. The next 30 were used for elaborate religious ceremonies.

NOTE: As I began working on this essay, I came up with a question myself: Who is Joseph’s Pharaoh? In the next section, I provide evidence that Ramses II of the 19th dynasty was Egypt’s Exodus king. According to Exodus 12: 40, 41, it seems the Israelites were in Egypt for 430 years. That being the case, 1200BC minus about 400 years is 1600 BC, which places the story of Joseph in the Second Intermediate Period (the period of national chaos that followed the collapse of the Middle Kingdom of the 11-13th dynasties, when a foreign invaders called the Hyksos ruled Northern Egypt). In many respects, this makes sense. Though the Hyksos kings took on many aspects of the ancient pharaohs, their royal and noble courts would have been more open to accepting an Israelite outsider as a high official in charge of solving the potential famine problem. As they Hyksos had no formal written records, it would not be surprising to find limited internal evidence in Egypt of the initial entry of the Israelites. Since the Hyksos would not have left clear records, and the Egyptians of the 17-18th dynasties (which included the reigns of Amenophis the Great and Tutankhamen) stomped out as much of the Hyksos presence as they could, it is no wonder that the tale of Exodus remarks that there came a time when “the Pharaoh know not Joseph”. Interestingly, the Tell ed-Dab’a site began to be occupied initially during Hyksos era and stopped being as vastly habited sometime in the 19th dynasty (presumably after Exodus).

Exodus (Genesis 1-14)

The story, told so beautifully in Cecil B. deMille’s The Ten Commandments, is probably well known to all. Moses escaped Pharaoh’s attempt at infanticide when his Hebrew mother sent him down the Nile in a basket. Moses is then adopted by an ancient Egyptian princess. Eventually, Moses flees Egypt, encounters God, and comes back to free his fellow Hebrews. After Moses calls down 9 plagues on the Egyptians, the Pharaoh frees the Hebrews after the tenth plague takes his first-born son. The Hebrews leave Egypt via a parting Red Sea, then wander 40 years before they establish a homeland.

There is limited evidence for the Exodus, based on the Egyptian records. Needless to say, the Egyptians did not routinely record defeat. And the Exodus was not immediately important to the rest of the world – just the Hebrews (who made the initial record) and the Egyptians (who did not promote the story). However, there are some elements of the story that are backed-up by Egyptian history and culture.

• The cities that the Hebrews were making, Pithom and Ramses, were real. Ramses the Great (aka, Ramses II, referred to as Ramses in the remaining essay), the probable pharaoh of the Exodus, was moving Egypt’s military, trade and financial centers closer to the Delta and the main trade routes of the Mediterranean. In fact, some of the most exciting archeology currently in Egypt is occurring at these cites. His palaces and temples, which would have been fabulous, unfortunately have sunk in the moist Delta soil (the temples in southern Egypt are far better preserved, including Ramses’ Abu Simbel). Teams are slowly digging out statues, temple stones, and other items.

• The Delta is exactly where the Israelites were stationed (Tel ed-Dab’a, as discussed above).

• These cities would have been primarily made of brick, as non-religious, functional buildings would not have been made of stone.

• The Red Sea is a mistranslation of – Sea of Reeds. This is the muddy area of the Delta that is crossed as you leave Egypt and go east. It would have been very challenging for cavalry to effectively cross that area in pursuit of fleeing Hebrews. In fact, the area is so hard to fight in, the Egyptians actually won their only real naval victory there, against the Sea Peoples, in a later dynasty.

• Egyptians used straw to make brick; people from Canaan did not. Therefore, if Israelites were using straw, it was under Egyptian influence.

• There is a passage that the midwives of ancient Egypt were told to watch the “two-stones”, in order to kill the male Hebrew infants. Two stones are actually what ancient Egyptians used for birthing stools – functional, if not comfortable.

• “Pharaoh’s heart was hardened” is a concept/expression that is classically ancient Egyptian – as the actual organ of thought was deemed to have been the heart.

• The sticks-into-serpents trick is actually doable today by Egyptian magicians at any bazaar today.

• “Moses” is the actual ancient Egyptian word for “birth”. If an Egyptian princess wanted to highlight the “fact” that she had a son, this would have been a reasonable name to give him.

• There is a papyrus that indicates Ramses priests should distribute grain to the Apiru who are transporting stones. ‘Apiru” is remarkable similar in sound to Hebrew.

• The stela of Merneptah (1207 BC), is important evidence. Merneptah is the 13th son and successor to Ramses. The stela says: “Canaan has been plundered into every sort of woe; Ashkelon has been overcome…..Israel is laid waste, its seed is no more”. The term used in conjunction with Israel is not “country” but translates roughly into “group of people”. At this point, the Israelites are still wandering.

• Counting backwards from the above date, Exodus would have taken place around year 20 of Ramses’ reign. This is about the year Ramses’ first son and heir, Amen-her-khepshef actually died.

PERSONAL NOTE: The green-misted appearance of the Angel of Death in the Ten Commandments is one of the most memorable, haunting movies scenes I have ever seen. I must admit I root for the Egyptians to win each and every time.

EGYPT CONQUERS ISRAEL

Some of you may remember the scene in Raiders of the Ark in which Indian Jones explains how the sacred device makes its way into Egypt in the first place (II Chronicles 12). Essentially, the Israelites were attacked in Jerusalem by Shisank, the king of Egypt. Indian explains Shisank took the arc to the city of Tanis and misused it.

This king that this passage is referring to is the Pharaoh Sheshonq I, who ruled in the 22nd dynasty. His reign starts in 945 BC, about 250 years after Exodus, after the Israelites have had time to establish a fair sized kingdom. Sheshonq may seem a strange name for an Egyptian; that is because his origins are Libyan. However, he led the 22nd dynasty off to a strong start by marring the daughter of the previous king.

Sheshonq launched a military campaign after the death of Solomon in 930 BC. In Palestine, there were the divided kingdoms of Judah (under Solomon’s son, Rehoboam) and Israel (under Jeroboam I). Rehoboam bought off Sheshonq in 925 BC, leaving Judah with a lot of gold, silver, and a few women for his troubles. However, Sheshonq was NOT given the Ark of the Covenant.

Sheshonq chased out the more unwise brother, Jeroboam, and marched north to Megiddo, where he erected a stela (just as a famous predecessor, Thutmosis III, did). In this stela, Sheshonq claimed the land for his own. This stela and the largest pylon that exists in Karnak, which was commissioned by Sheshonq after his victories, attest the truth in this tale of conquest.

Snoopy
2006-01-25, 21:14
I'm not reading this, but I'm of the firm opinion that your friend should suck my fucking pseudo-nigger nuts. I got a crack pipe and my Tetka to back that shit up, yo!

Faggoted God Forum.

Huggy Bear
2006-01-25, 23:58
quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

I'm not reading this, but I'm of the firm opinion that your friend should suck my fucking pseudo-nigger nuts. I got a crack pipe and my Tetka to back that shit up, yo!

Faggoted God Forum.

And you're a Moderator because...?

Snoopy
2006-01-26, 00:02
quote:Originally posted by Huggy Bear:

And you're a Moderator because...?

Because I own face.

Osiris89
2006-01-26, 04:07
A long time ago Mt. Vesuvius erupted. Dumbass people wrote it as God's Anger, and recorded it in history.

2000 years later, historians discover scrolls about this, and debate whether or not it was a volcano or "gods wrath" that destroyed a city.

See where religion and history can cause conflict?

Viraljimmy
2006-01-26, 13:26
Nobody with any education debates that the bible contains historical references. However, there is a shitload of fairy-tales mixed in.

They thought Troy was a fictional city until they found it. (wasn't in the bible)

David Koresh was a real guy. I found magazine articles that prove it. Therefore, verything he said was true.

He really was the messiah!

NightVision
2006-01-26, 22:47
quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

A friend of mine wrote this, and I thought I would share, since it's an interesting read.

She is Egyptian, and is consumed with it's culture and history, just to give you a little bit of background.

Yes, it's long, but she's got some very good information in here.

Enjoy.





so? how does that make you not an idiot?

Digital_Savior
2006-01-27, 02:19
quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

I'm not reading this, but I'm of the firm opinion that your friend should suck my fucking pseudo-nigger nuts. I got a crack pipe and my Tetka to back that shit up, yo!

Faggoted God Forum.

The two forums you claim to hate, My God and Politics, are where you lurk and troll.

Interesting.

Digital_Savior
2006-01-27, 02:20
quote:Originally posted by Huggy Bear:

And you're a Moderator because...?

Because Wintermute WUVS him !!! http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

Digital_Savior
2006-01-27, 02:23
quote:Originally posted by Osiris89:

A long time ago Mt. Vesuvius erupted. Dumbass people wrote it as God's Anger, and recorded it in history.

2000 years later, historians discover scrolls about this, and debate whether or not it was a volcano or "gods wrath" that destroyed a city.

See where religion and history can cause conflict?

What the hell does that have to do with the contents of the essay ?

Please refrain from diversion.

Just comment on what she said, or not at all, please.

Digital_Savior
2006-01-27, 02:24
You people just can't STAND a legitimate, mature conversation, can you ?

*sighs*

I'm too much of an optimist sometimes.

TerminatorVinitiatoR
2006-01-27, 03:59
yeah well, shut the fuck up then, your supposed to put stuff on here that is written by you, don't post something a friend wrote, just shut the fuck up

Osiris89
2006-01-27, 05:12
quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

What the hell does that have to do with the contents of the essay ?

Please refrain from diversion.

Just comment on what she said, or not at all, please.

I'm sorry, it's hard translating concepts into words.

To summarize: several true historically documented facts (such as Egyptian famines) could, as a result of stupid priests who think anything can be attributed to god, would "rewrite" history by mystifying it.

Therefore, all the biblical references of disaster had absolutely no effect of "god". It was all natural - humans translated doom with god.

Endpoint.

Digital_Savior
2006-01-27, 06:25
Repeating it didn't make it any more relevant.

I wasn't trying to prove that these historical Egyptian stories support the accuracy of the Bible, although they DO.

You can't prove that the accounts were deliberate lies, and furthermore it is complete idiocy to believe that the Egyptians would alter their own proud history to fit around the Judeo-Christian God, since Jews were seen as the scourge of the earth and fit for nothing other than slavery by them.

If you're going to say this about ancient Egyptian historical documents, then you need to apply that across the board.

Nothing in our history is really known.

You really believe that, or do you hate the idea of Christianity SO much you will say just about ANYTHING to avoid admitting that it might have some validity ?

Digital_Savior
2006-01-27, 06:27
quote:Originally posted by TerminatorVinitiatoR:

yeah well, shut the fuck up then, your supposed to put stuff on here that is written by you, don't post something a friend wrote, just shut the fuck up

Oh ? Where is this rule defined in writing by the staff on Totse ?

Posting information to discuss it isn't allowed on this forum ?!

Well, shit...I'm in the wrong place.

I didn't realize I was in Communist Totse.

Snoopy
2006-01-27, 08:35
quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

You people just can't STAND a legitimate, mature conversation, can you ?

*sighs*

I'm too much of an optimist sometimes.

Just because you use punctuation and spell relatively correct, does not mean its content is legitimate. Your post are about as retarded as those Half Baked "omg ur gey" posts. They're just a bit longer and with punctuation, some people get the impression that they have content. Fuck me if they read your bullshit though. No one here gives a fuck about what some superstitious house wife has to say, safe for the few idiots who think they can change the word by acting like "conservatives".

Osiris89
2006-01-27, 21:31
quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Repeating it didn't make it any more relevant.

I wasn't trying to prove that these historical Egyptian stories support the accuracy of the Bible, although they DO.

You can't prove that the accounts were deliberate lies, and furthermore it is complete idiocy to believe that the Egyptians would alter their own proud history to fit around the Judeo-Christian God, since Jews were seen as the scourge of the earth and fit for nothing other than slavery by them.

If you're going to say this about ancient Egyptian historical documents, then you need to apply that across the board.

Nothing in our history is really known.

You really believe that, or do you hate the idea of Christianity SO much you will say just about ANYTHING to avoid admitting that it might have some validity ?

Not at all. Not at all. But there have been historic "proofs" in Egypt about Osiris, Thoth, Set, AMun-Ra, Horus, Isis, etc. Do you believe in these pagan gods?

Zay
2006-01-27, 21:45
quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

A friend of mine wrote this, and I thought I would share, since it's an interesting read.

She is Egyptian, and is consumed with it's culture and history, just to give you a little bit of background.

Yes, it's long, but she's got some very good information in here.

En joy.

--- ---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ----



I have sometimes been involved in heated theological discussions between religious (i.e, conservative) friends and more secular (i.e., liberal) comrades. Many secular individuals scoff at the stories contained in the Holy Book, and believe that the tales are simply myths. I do not attend church regularly, and have read only the parts of the Bible interesting to me personally (namely the sections related to Egypt, the Gospels, Revelation, and the Psalms). However, I have been in the position to bolster the conservative point of view with a few choice archaeological facts I have discovered as a student of ancient Egypt.

There are several biblical stories that directly involve Egypt. Interestingly, many of the elements in these tales are true, based on current egyptological evidence. The purpose of this essay is to highlight specific parts of the Bible and compare them to what is known about the history and culture of ancient Egypt. I will also add that Egypt is an intriguing place to study. There are just enough written records present to get some sense of events and people, but not enough to confirm or refute specific theories. The information I provide represents what is agreed to by many Egyptologists (including the ones I most respect), but by no means all. Equally valid alternative explanations are available.

The main source information for the following sections is from The Great Courses on Tape – The History of Ancient Egypt by Bob Brier. This essay will not detail the entire biblical stories (as I do not propose to be a theologian), though it will cite the specific passages discussed. I will not debate articles of faith, either. This essay is offered only to provide information to interested individuals.

Joseph in Egypt (Genesis 37-50)

The first tale to be analyzed is my personal favorite, Joseph in Egypt. That is because the Egyptians (though there are a few bad ones) actually come out well in the end.

The basic story is that Joseph has a God-given gift: the ability to interpret dreams accurately. His brothers, jealous of his position as father’s favorite, sell Joseph into slavery. Joseph eventually lands in Egypt, the slave of a high official named Potiphar. Potiphar’s wife lusts after the new slave, and is annoyed that Joseph will not betray his master. Upset, the wife accuses Joseph of a rape attempt, and he lands in jail. Joseph stays in jail until he correctly interprets the dreams of two other jail-mates, who are highly placed court officials. One of the officials is put to death, while the other returns to court and tells a troubled Pharaoh of Joseph’s amazing gift. It seems Pharaoh has been having evil dreams. The magicians of the court can’t seem to figure out the meaning of their leader’s nightmares. Joseph is called upon to interpret the dreams, which foretell of a 7-year famine. Impressed with the forecast, Pharaoh mandates that Joseph prepare Egypt for the famine. Joseph successfully does so, and is reunited, happily and successfully, with his brothers and his father after they come to Egypt in search for food.

The points in the egyptological record that confirm important elements of this story are:

• Potiphar’s name seems to be derived from a real name in ancient Egypt, Pa-di-Ra (given by Ra). Ra was a chief solar deity of the ancient Egyptians.

• The story uses the word “magician” for the Egyptian interpreters of dreams who failed to perform for Pharaoh. The Coptic word for magician is ses-per-ankh (Coptic is the language that evolved directly from the ancient Egyptian tongue, which is spelled using Greek letters). Ses-per-ankh means “scribe of the house of life”. This term also is used for priest, and priests were specifically in charge of dream interpretation in ancient Egypt.

• An Egyptian Dream book confirms Joseph’s skill at interpreting prophetic dreams. The Pharaoh’s dreams are not in the ses-per-ankh’s dream book, explaining why priests could not interpret the dreams.

• A stela on Sehel Island tells of a 7-year famine resulting from the Nile’s low water level.

• Joseph is given a signet ring of authority by the Pharaoh. This is a typical Egyptian item indicating rank and power.

• Joseph is given the Egyptian name – Zaph-nath-paa-neah, which transliterates into something along the lines of He-who-will-save, as told in the Bible. His wife, Asenath, also has what seems to be a classically derived Egyptian name (As-en-neith, She of Neith – Neith being a highly revered female war deity).

• While Joseph is organizing the Egyptians to prepare for the famine, they shout “Abrek” at him. This is close to an ancient Egyptian phrase – Ab-er-ek – meaning heart-to-you (similar to “more power to you” in our language).

• There is a phrase Joseph uses while chatting with his brothers at the end of the story – God has made me Father to Pharaoh. This title, God’s Father, was actually in use in ancient Egypt, and specifically denotes highly placed and trusted royal officials. Reasonably, this would have been one of the Egyptian titles given to Joseph.

• There is a passage that Joseph goes to Goshen and buys land and cattle from the Pharaoh, but not the priests. This is true; priests were allowed to accumulate land, a practice that actually caused serious economic problems for Egypt in their later history. These restrictive economic practices were partially addressed when the Greeks restructured the Egyptian bureaucracy after Alexander the Great took over. After the Greeks removed restrictive land ownership practices, Egypt experienced an economic boom that lasted well into the Roman period.

• Archaeological remains in a Northern Egyptian site, Tell ed Dab’a, turn up utensils, pottery, and burial wares that are essentially Palestinian, not Egyptian, in influence. . This dig site is in the area that is thought to be ancient Goshen.

• When Joseph’s father, Jacob, died, the bible indicates there was 40 days for embalming and 70 days for mourning. These time periods exactly correspond to what is now known about human mummification as practiced by the ancient Egyptians. The first 40 days were used to prepare the body (i.e., remove the internal organs) and drying the cadaver in dry natron. The next 30 were used for elaborate religious ceremonies.

NOTE: As I began working on this essay, I came up with a question myself: Who is Joseph’s Pharaoh? In the next section, I provide evidence that Ramses II of the 19th dynasty was Egypt’s Exodus king. According to Exodus 12: 40, 41, it seems the Israelites were in Egypt for 430 years. That being the case, 1200BC minus about 400 years is 1600 BC, which places the story of Joseph in the Second Intermediate Period (the period of national chaos that followed the collapse of the Middle Kingdom of the 11-13th dynasties, when a foreign invaders called the Hyksos ruled Northern Egypt). In many respects, this makes sense. Though the Hyksos kings took on many aspects of the ancient pharaohs, their royal and noble courts would have been more open to accepting an Israelite outsider as a high official in charge of solving the potential famine problem. As they Hyksos had no formal written records, it would not be surprising to find limited internal evidence in Egypt of the initial entry of the Israelites. Since the Hyksos would not have left clear records, and the Egyptians of the 17-18th dynasties (which included the reigns of Amenophis the Great and Tutankhamen) stomped out as much of the Hyksos presence as they could, it is no wonder that the tale of Exodus remarks that there came a time when “the Pharaoh know not Joseph”. Interestingly, the Tell ed-Dab’a site began to be occupied initially during Hyksos era and stopped being as vastly habited sometime in the 19th dynasty (presumably after Exodus).

Exodus (Genesis 1-14)

The story, told so beautifully in Cecil B. deMille’s The Ten Commandments, is probably well known to all. Moses escaped Pharaoh’s attempt at infanticide when his Hebrew mother sent him down the Nile in a basket. Moses is then adopted by an ancient Egyptian princess. Eventually, Moses flees Egypt, encounters God, and comes back to free his fellow Hebrews. After Moses calls down 9 plagues on the Egyptians, the Pharaoh frees the Hebrews after the tenth plague takes his first-born son. The Hebrews leave Egypt via a parting Red Sea, then wander 40 years before they establish a homeland.

There is limited evidence for the Exodus, based on the Egyptian records. Needless to say, the Egyptians did not routinely record defeat. And the Exodus was not immediately important to the rest of the world – just the Hebrews (who made the initial record) and the Egyptians (who did not promote the story). However, there are some elements of the story that are backed-up by Egyptian history and culture.

• The cities that the Hebrews were making, Pithom and Ramses, were real. Ramses the Great (aka, Ramses II, referred to as Ramses in the remaining essay), the probable pharaoh of the Exodus, was moving Egypt’s military, trade and financial centers closer to the Delta and the main trade routes of the Mediterranean. In fact, some of the most exciting archeology currently in Egypt is occurring at these cites. His palaces and temples, which would have been fabulous, unfortunately have sunk in the moist Delta soil (the temples in southern Egypt are far better preserved, including Ramses’ Abu Simbel). Teams are slowly digging out statues, temple stones, and other items.

• The Delta is exactly where the Israelites were stationed (Tel ed-Dab’a, as discussed above).

• These cities would have been primarily made of brick, as non-religious, functional buildings would not have been made of stone.

• The Red Sea is a mistranslation of – Sea of Reeds. This is the muddy area of the Delta that is crossed as you leave Egypt and go east. It would have been very challenging for cavalry to effectively cross that area in pursuit of fleeing Hebrews. In fact, the area is so hard to fight in, the Egyptians actually won their only real naval victory there, against the Sea Peoples, in a later dynasty.

• Egyptians used straw to make brick; people from Canaan did not. Therefore, if Israelites were using straw, it was under Egyptian influence.

• There is a passage that the midwives of ancient Egypt were told to watch the “two-stones”, in order to kill the male Hebrew infants. Two stones are actually what ancient Egyptians used for birthing stools – functional, if not comfortable.

• “Pharaoh’s heart was hardened” is a concept/expression that is classically ancient Egyptian – as the actual organ of thought was deemed to have been the heart.

• The sticks-into-serpents trick is actually doable today by Egyptian magicians at any bazaar today.

• “Moses” is the actual ancient Egyptian word for “birth”. If an Egyptian princess wanted to highlight the “fact” that she had a son, this would have been a reasonable name to give him.

• There is a papyrus that indicates Ramses priests should distribute grain to the Apiru who are transporting stones. ‘Apiru” is remarkable similar in sound to Hebrew.

• The stela of Merneptah (1207 BC), is important evidence. Merneptah is the 13th son and successor to Ramses. The stela says: “Canaan has been plundered into every sort of woe; Ashkelon has been overcome…..Israel is laid waste, its seed is no more”. The term used in conjunction with Israel is not “country” but translates roughly into “group of people”. At this point, the Israelites are still wandering.

• Counting backwards from the above date, Exodus would have taken place around year 20 of Ramses’ reign. This is about the year Ramses’ first son and heir, Amen-her-khepshef actually died.

PERSONAL NOTE: The green-misted appearance of the Angel of Death in the Ten Commandments is one of the most memorable, haunting movies scenes I have ever seen. I must admit I root for the Egyptians to win each and every time.

EGYPT CONQUERS ISRAEL

Some of you may remember the scene in Raiders of the Ark in which Indian Jones explains how the sacred device makes its way into Egypt in the first place (II Chronicles 12). Essentially, the Israelites were attacked in Jerusalem by Shisank, the king of Egypt. Indian explains Shisank took the arc to the city of Tanis and misused it.

This king that this passage is referring to is the Pharaoh Sheshonq I, who ruled in the 22nd dynasty. His reign starts in 945 BC, about 250 years after Exodus, after the Israelites have had time to establish a fair sized kingdom. Sheshonq may seem a strange name for an Egyptian; that is because his origins are Libyan. However, he led the 22nd dynasty off to a strong start by marring the daughter of the previous king.

Sheshonq launched a military campaign after the death of Solomon in 930 BC. In Palestine, there were the divided kingdoms of Judah (under Solomon’s son, Rehoboam) and Israel (under Jeroboam I). Rehoboam bought off Sheshonq in 925 BC, leaving Judah with a lot of gold, silver, and a few women for his troubles. However, Sheshonq was NOT given the Ark of the Covenant.

Sheshonq chased out the more unwise brother, Jeroboam, and marched north to Megiddo, where he erected a stela (just as a famous predecessor, Thutmosis III, did). In this stela, Sheshonq claimed the land for his own. This stela and the largest pylon that exists in Karnak, which was commissioned by Sheshonq after his victories, attest the truth in this tale of conquest.



That was way too long for me.

neX
2006-01-28, 00:58
quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

I'm not reading this, but I'm of the firm opinion that your friend should suck my fucking pseudo-nigger nuts. I got a crack pipe and my Tetka to back that shit up, yo!

Faggoted God Forum.

=D

Huggy Bear
2006-01-28, 01:01
Snoopy's a troll.

XeNobiTe
2006-01-28, 21:29
And a good one too.

TerminatorVinitiatoR
2006-01-29, 08:16
quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Oh ? Where is this rule defined in writing by the staff on Totse ?

Posting information to discuss it isn't allowed on this forum ?!

Well, shit...I'm in the wrong place.

I didn't realize I was in Communist Totse.

read the FAQ dumbass.

its the same rule that disallows link posting.

also, you make me puke.

Slave of the Beast
2006-01-29, 12:32
Validating the existence of people does not validate the myths surrounding them.

So what exactly does this article prove?