Serious discussion..: Christianity -- Your opinion [Archive]

Sig_Intel

2005-11-26, 20:01

quote:Originally posted by Hacker:

OK here it goes:

1.) Doesn't Christianity teach that the only thing wrong with the world is people that are not Christians - except the people that have not learned about Christ aqnd his sacrifice?

Not exactly, the teaching is the world is corrupt as a whole. We live in a fallen world and since we are a part of it, we are fallen as well.

The beasts of the world do not know the difference between right and wrong. So it is us who were made knowledgable by the original sin are held to account for our lives.

Christians are not perfect only forgiven through the grace of God by giving His only Son as a sacrifice for all the sin in the world. It is a gift that readily awaits all who seek it through repentance. All of us have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God.

quote:

2.) Christians are big on the foregiveness thing but when we forgive a person that has wronged us in some way -- don't we first have to judge them which we are told by Christians not to do?

The confusion lies betweeen discernment and judgement. I am very capable of pointing out errors but I am not capable of putting down a judgment because of it. Correction nor discipline is not the same as condemnation.

I have no power ot condemn anybody and Jesus Himself did not come to condemn the world but to save it. Judgement comes at the end of ages when all will have to give account for their lives.

Today, be thankful that someone has told you what will be used as the measure. It is the Holy laws of God which are found in the bible. You have been told - ignorance is no excuse.

I should add that in the Old Testament ways, judgement was handed down to the sinner through death by stoneing or by whatever judgement was given.

This of course doesn't give the opportunity for repentence. When Jesus said you should not judge is to say you do not have the power to condemn or if you do condmen you will also be condemned.

The bible is very open about correcting, rebuking and teaching others. That is what the bible is said to be useful for.

quote:

3.) When Christ turned the water into wine, was it the best tasting wine ever? And were those loaves and fishes the best tasting too?

I can say yes to the wine but not to the bread and fish. The account in the bible is here:

"Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now."John 2:10

I could imagine he was saying it was pretty good stuff!

The entire passage is here;

http:/ /www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=2&version=31 (http: //www.bibl egateway.c om/passage /?book_id= 50&chapter =2&version =31)

[This message has been edited by Sig_Intel (edited 11-26-2005).]

crazygoatemonky

2005-11-26, 22:56

Ok, this is a question I've always had about Christianity. Can you sin in Heaven? What happens if, even without sinning, your heaven interferes with somebody else's heaven? Do we still have free will in Heaven? What does the bible even say about what Heaven's like, or how to get in?

Sig_Intel

2005-11-26, 23:37

quote:Originally posted by crazygoatemonky:

Ok, this is a question I've always had about Christianity. Can you sin in Heaven?

You have some big questions. I'll do my best.

I would say yes to this question. I qualify it by saying the devil was able to war against God. The bible teaches that the devil pursuaded a third of the angels to follow Him. Even though this is an account of sin in Heaven it did not last long as the bible said Satan was cast down to earth like lightening. Meaning the war didn't last long.

There are some denominations that teach we as humans are the fallen angels and this life is the second chance we are getting to get back in good standing with God. (There is no biblical support for the claim though)

quote:

What happens if, even without sinning, your heaven interferes with somebody else's heaven?

It is not possible to not sin. Sin is a state of being. I.E. "the sinful nature of man". We are born sinners as sons of Adam. It isn't until we accept we are fallen and repent do we become sons of God. This is the condition of spiritual blindness that prevents one from readily seeing their own spiritual condition.

quote:

Do we still have free will in Heaven?

I'm not certain it will even be considered "free will" After all the tests and tribulations we are going to go through to make sure our hearts are in the right place, there will be no question at that point of who is loyal to God and who is not.

This life is all about finding those who are His and then shaking the vine to see who really is who they say they are by who continues to persevere through the trials.

quote:

What does the bible even say about what Heaven's like, or how to get in?

The bible says plenty about what Heaven will be like.

John 14 - In my Father's house there are many rooms; if it were not so I would not have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you.

Revelation 21 is a better discription.

The bible also tells a lot of how to get in. However Mark16:16 tells it plainly -

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

John 6:40 - "For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

There are also conditions set around faith. Meaning, obediance to God's will. The Holy Spirit takes over from there as the "great counselor". Through repentence, faith and baptism by the Holy Spirit do we become clean enough to be the temple God desires us to be. This is the first Heaven. Or the "Kingdom of God" which is in our hearts and minds.

The understanding is what is the spirit of a kingdom other then the people that are in it. As a body of people as a whole is what makes up the Kingdom of God. He is the ruler and Jesus is the Lord over it.

The "Kingdom of God" is the church of true believers who follow the lamb. The church body will eventually be rejoined with the head at the appointed time. (This is what the metaphorical meaning to what human marriage is.) I.E. The bride being joined with the bridegroom.

Hope that helps...

Clarphimous

2005-11-27, 01:18

quote:Originally posted by crazygoatemonky:

Ok, this is a question I've always had about Christianity. Can you sin in Heaven? What happens if, even without sinning, your heaven interferes with somebody else's heaven? Do we still have free will in Heaven? What does the bible even say about what Heaven's like, or how to get in?

Sin in heaven.

If free will leads to sin, then:

>If people have free will in heaven

>>people will sin in heaven

>If people do not have free will in heaven

>>people will not sin in heaven

Else If temptation leads to sin, then:

>If there are no temptations in heaven (likely)

>>there will be no sin in heaven

Sources of happiness in heaven interfering with each other.

This is simple to answer. Just change what can make you happy to something everyone can have at the same time.

Free will in heaven.

Depends on the relationship between sin and free will, probably.

What heaven is like, how to get there.

Heaven is sometimes described like the sky (in Isaiah), like a mansion, or like a big walled city. The "New Jerusalem" described in Revelations is a giant cube.

In the Tanach, only two people got to heaven. One of them (Elijah or Elisha, I can never remember which) got there via a flaming chariot. Because heaven was imagined as being on top of the sky. Later on in the New Testament heaven was still depicted as being in the sky (Jesus' ascension). Now people think it's either somewhere way out in the universe, or, as more probably believe, in a spiritual dimension which is separate from our own.

Axiom

2005-11-27, 02:23

Why did God tell Jacob that sacrifice is not how you show your love to God...

Yet then sacrificed his son to show his love for people? And why is Jesus his only son?... Surely he has the power to make millions... It doesn't seem like a biggie to me... He should have killed thousands of people...

Oh that's right he did... To prove a point to the devil... Still don't understand that..

Clarphimous

2005-11-27, 03:29

quote:Originally posted by Axiom:

Why did God tell Jacob that sacrifice is not how you show your love to God...

Yet then sacrificed his son to show his love for people? And why is Jesus his only son?... Surely he has the power to make millions... It doesn't seem like a biggie to me... He should have killed thousands of people...

Oh that's right he did... To prove a point to the devil... Still don't understand that..

Yeah, it doesn't really make sense that God would send his son to suffer and die for our sins when all he has to do is speak and anything he wants will happen. Unless, maybe, he's not all powerful. Or perhaps God created Jesus as a fictional character to serve as a role model for all Christians.

Just some wacky ideas.

Oh, and the story of Job was to point out that bad things happen to good people. Before then it was "good things are happening to you, so God must favor you" or "God is punishing you for your sins." Check out the Jewish law and you'll see what I mean.

Osiris89

2005-11-27, 03:45

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>

<LI>What exactly happened in Genisis? It first says "God created man in its image" and then later says "God created the Earth and animals, and then mankind".

<LI>What is hell exactly. Is it a dark, bottomless pit, or is it full of fire.

<LI>What if you are an unbeliever? I.E. agnostics? Do they get punished in "hell" for eternity because they are unsure of the existance of god? Doesn't that remind you of Big Brother? If so, I know where I'm going.

<LI>If Islam states a different god, and a different heaven, would you consider it incorrect because it contradicts your scripture?

</UL>

[This message has been edited by Osiris89 (edited 11-27-2005).]

Sig_Intel

2005-11-27, 03:48

quote:Originally posted by Axiom:

Why did God tell Jacob that sacrifice is not how you show your love to God...

Could you provide the scripture that you are referencing? Your statement sounds like it is missing something. Usually when God says something like that there is another point He is making.

quote:

Yet then sacrificed his son to show his love for people?

Hence, the need to understand what you said previously. To understand what Jesus did you have to understand the previous.

quote:

And why is Jesus his only son?...

Who knows..that is a question that has no answer.

quote:

Surely he has the power to make millions... It doesn't seem like a biggie to me... He should have killed thousands of people...

We are all children of God who have accepted that Jesus is Lord. However, the sacrifice for sin requires a lamb without blemish. Nobody is worthy of such a thing other then God's only Son.

quote:

Oh that's right he did... To prove a point to the devil... Still don't understand that..

This goes way to deep to cover here. The bottom line is the son's of Adam belong to the devil. Those freed by Jesus through the sacrifice on the Cross belong to God.

Sig_Intel

2005-11-27, 04:01

quote:Originally posted by Osiris89:

[list]

<LI>What exactly happened in Genisis? It first says "God created man in its image" and then later says "God created the Earth and animals, and then mankind".

That isn't accurate. You have it back wards. Man was created on the 6th day. First there was the heavens, then earth and the light - the first day. Then the seas and the atmosphere and dry land and vegetation. Then fish and birds, then land dwelling animals. Man/woman were created last.

quote:

<LI>What is hell exactly. Is it a dark, bottomless pit, or is it full of fire.

It is a lake of burning sulfer. A place where there is no rest nor drop of water for the thirsty. This is metaphoric for being a part from God the river of life.

quote:

<LI>What if you are an unbeliever? I.E. agnostics? Do they get punished in "hell" for eternity because they are unsure of the existance of god?

Nobody knows how we are going to be judged. Nobody knows who will have their name written in the book of life nor anybody knows who will be condemned from entering Heaven. Your guess is as good as mine though I don't venture to take a guess. The only one sure way I know of is to follow the way of Jesus. He said He is the only way.

quote:

Doesn't that remind you of Big Brother? If so, I know where I'm going.

If you lived in your fathers house and didn't follow his rules what would happen?

quote:

<LI>If Islam states a different god, and a different heaven, would you consider it incorrect because it contradicts your scripture?

They actually claim the same God of Abraham, Moses, Jesus and so on. They just have a little twist on who they follow to Him if it is God they aim for at all. A lot of the things they are allowed to do and be justified by their scripture contradicts what is in the New testament or the new covenant of God.

I only have a basic understanding of the Islamic faith but what I do know doesn't match either the Hebrew or Christian depiction of God or Heaven.

Inti

2005-11-27, 04:27

quote:Originally posted by Clarphimous:

Yeah, it doesn't really make sense that God would send his son to suffer and die for our sins when all he has to do is speak and anything he wants will happen. Unless, maybe, he's not all powerful. Or perhaps God created Jesus as a fictional character to serve as a role model for all Christians.

ck_psy_sjk

2005-11-27, 06:54

I'll try cover the one's Sig_Intel hasn't answered.. anyway, good job http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif).

Yes I am a christian, and i am a sinner.. not saying im perfect here..

If i missed any, please repeat it, or quote it, because it's very confusing in here.

Sacrifice is not how you show your love to God (as in the sacrificing of animals), but in a way it is, as when you sacrifice the things of this world, that shows how commited and faithful you are to God.

It wasn't Jacob, it was Abraham... and his son was issac (jacob was isaac's son), whom he was told to sacrifice, By God, to test his faith, and to build his faith.. note: that Isaac, was their only son, (Abraham and Sarah), and God had promised abraham, that one day, he would have many many descendents.

We, you, me, humans, are all children of God, but Jesus, was perfect.. I think that is why it is told that Jesus was his only (perfect) Son..

He proved a point to the devil, but perhaps your confusing it with Job., in who God and the devil, had an arguement...

--Clarphimous,

God wants true, free love..

now is forcing people to love you, free, true love?

now the saying goes.. "True love, is free love", now it would't be true love, when we're forced into it is it?.

Hell..

There is a MAJOR misconception about hell, people think that hell is ruled by satan.. in fact, it was a place, created by God to punish satan and his workers/demons.. This was also a place to place non-christians..

The bible speaks of hell, as a place without God's love.. All good things come from God..

so if there were no God, there would be no Good.

The bible also explains what hell is like in the following vesus'

Revelatoin 20:10 -- Unquenchable fire

Matthew 25:30 -- Alternative to Eternal life.

Matthew 25:46 -- Punishment and shut out from the presence of God

Mark 9:43 -- prepared for satan

2 Thessalonions 1:8-9 -- Avoidable

John 3:16-18 -- Darkness and torment..

______________________

any other opinions? testimonies?

Fundokiller

2005-11-27, 07:29

I think the whole concept of hell is just a form of divine blackmail.

ck_psy_sjk

2005-11-27, 07:34

blackmail for what?

to live a good life?

You get to heaven, when you trust and have a peronal relationship with Jesus..

you won't get there by good deeds..

so how is that blackmail?

Clarphimous

2005-11-27, 22:20

quote:--Clarphimous,

God wants true, free love..

now is forcing people to love you, free, true love?

now the saying goes.. "True love, is free love", now it would't be true love, when we're forced into it is it?.

What part of my posts are you responding to?

Fundokiller

2005-11-28, 09:39

quote:Originally posted by ck_psy_sjk:

blackmail for what?

to live a good life?

You get to heaven, when you trust and have a peronal relationship with Jesus..

you won't get there by good deeds..

so how is that blackmail?

Because the whole concept is a form of coercion.

The blackmail is summed up thusly "If you don't accept christianity you will be in endless torment after you die"

That is black-mail.

It's akin to somebody going

"if you don't accept christianity I will shoot you in the head and rape your children"

Black-fucking-mail

ck_psy_sjk

2005-11-28, 11:14

ok look

God's loving..

ill tell you this..

God loves you and respects you

that,

if you havn't spent a life following God, he says.." ok, thats fine, since you didn't follow me in your lifetime, you dont have to spend eternity with me", so he sends them to hell, where there is no God.

Fundokiller

2005-11-28, 11:17

...And eternal suffering.

Right, Love

ck_psy_sjk

2005-11-28, 11:28

no..

i dont think you get it..

its kind of hard to explain..

he respects your descision..

if you decided to follow him in this life,

then you will be with him in the next,

if you didnt,

he respects you, since you didnt want him in your life, he says.. " well since you didnt want me in this life, then your not getting me in the next ", and then yeah..

its hard to explain through text

Fundokiller

2005-11-28, 11:33

So I just don't get too see a deity that I never believed existed in the first place?

the_nut

2005-11-28, 11:56

its your own fault if you dont believe.. its your decision, so why not just believe... isit so hard?

its not blackmail, its a choice you make.

Osiris89

2005-11-29, 00:19

quote:Originally posted by the_nut:

its your own fault if you dont believe.. its your decision, so why not just believe... isit so hard?

its not blackmail, its a choice you make.

It's more than that, you fool! There is no proof of the existence of God. Therefore:

A) The was created by Politicians - not Prophets, to mass-mind-control the peasents; therefore, God is a lie

B) God is Satan and Satan is God; the Bible talks about the wrong God!

C) This world was created by abio-genisis, and we were created through evolutionism.

Additionally, your idea is weak. Why not believe? Why not believe in Santa Claus? Just because people "claim" that this scripture is the truth, it doesn't mean they're "right".

By your own logic, we the Germans should have blindly put their faith in Hitler, because it "isn't that difficult to believe."

Beholder

2005-11-29, 02:03

I've spent the majority of my life within the church, and I'd like to say that I disagree with alot of what's being said.

quote:its your own fault if you dont believe.. its your decision, so why not just believe... isit so hard?

its not blackmail, its a choice you make.

Although I somewhat agree with this statement, I strongly dissaprove with the attitude it's encompassed within. Generally because the fact remains that someone knows no better, changing their entire life to a philosophy they don't entirely understand is so hard.

I also think it's arrogant to believe we understand the mind of god. We can decrypt basic truths and personality traits from the texts he has provided us with; but who's to say exactly what logic GOD is using to banish people to hell? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe HE reveals that to us (and again, I would rather stand corrected than go on being wrong). I, personally, would imagine that each individual case is unique; for I don't believe GOD tries to reveal himself to each person in the same way.

Yet not all hope is lost for those who do not know, for I believe (and again, this is from what I understand of the faith) that if one calls upon God to reveal himself, and that individual remains open minded, God may do so.

The book of proverbs preamble includes the addage "Wisdom calls aloud in the streets..." and I strongly believe this entire passage exists to not only illustrate that judgement exists for those who do not know the truth and continue to live sinfully (as well as those who do know yet continue to); but to also illustrate that wisdom indeed calls! I think that this lucidly supports my previous statement that God may reveal himself to those who ask.

Secondly, concerning free will and heaven, let's imagine for a second that GOD is the glorious being that us christians make him out to be (which I believe he is). Now stay with me, because for some this may be a difficult idea to grasp, but would not our will would conform to the will of God's just by being in the presence of him? This would also systematically answer the age old "Can we sin in heaven?" This may logically not be true of angels, because they cannot look into the face of god http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) , only we as human beings can.

Again, this is just my personal dogma, GOD help me I'm wrong.

[This message has been edited by Beholder (edited 11-29-2005).]

NightVision

2005-11-29, 02:12

Christianity=Zionist Conspiracy...

Beholder

2005-11-29, 02:29

quote:Christianity=Zionist Conspiracy...

Thank you for your fantastic contribution to this thread... http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

Twiggy

2005-11-29, 11:21

Christianity, like all religions (minus Buddhism, which isn't a religion anyway) ==> An indoctrinating work of fiction.

A famous man once said religion is the "opiate of the masses" - It subdues people for the benefit of a few, but the people are just too wrapped up in themselves to realise this.

I treat the big religions like any of the many cults that are forced on one at university (and believe me there are a lot of cults that target students as easy prey), and am wary of them. I was brought up as a christian - my mother holds beliefs, but as soon as I was old enough to see the evil of the church I made up my own mind.

And no, I'm not a communist.

Beholder

2005-11-29, 22:38

Evils of the church?

Helping people?

Selflessness?

Drives for less fortunate families so they don't starve to death and helping out a child who otherwise wouldn't have a toy on christmas gets one?

Yeah, we're definately elitists. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

From what I can see concerning the christianity I've been personally exposed to, I've witnessed it do nothing but good. I'm rather active in my church and believe I have a good idea of what's going on.

Osiris89

2005-11-29, 23:20

quote:Originally posted by Beholder:

Evils of the church?

Helping people?

Selflessness?

Drives for less fortunate families so they don't starve to death and helping out a child who otherwise wouldn't have a toy on christmas gets one?

Yeah, we're definately elitists. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

From what I can see concerning the christianity I've been personally exposed to, I've witnessed it do nothing but good. I'm rather active in my church and believe I have a good idea of what's going on.

- Crusades

- Inquisition

- Witch hunts

- Religions wars

- Genocide

- Anti-science

Sig_Intel

2005-11-30, 03:50

quote:Originally posted by Osiris89:

- Crusades

- Inquisition

- Witch hunts

- Religions wars

- Genocide

- Anti-science

crusades - fought Muslim invasion of Europe and pushed them back to their sand boxes. Otherwise you would be bowing down to Allah 5 times a day on your rug right now or getting your head lopped off. Your choice.

Inquisition - Catholic purge of "non believers" despite those who followed Jesus outside of the Catholic folds. This was a failure of man not of doctrine.

Witch hunts - Many witches don't know what dark powers they court. I've spoken to one who said they ask out to the air for their spell to be granted. I asked her who she was asking and she said she didn't know. She then stopped talking to me.

Religious wars - no such word as Jihad in Christianity - what war was fought in the name of Jesus? Just curious if you can name one.

Genecide- The church doors are open to anyone and everyone who decides to enter them. This is what is taught. There is no history of Christians trying to destroy an entire race of people. What are you referencing?

Anti-science - Science that promotes and preserves life is greatly accepted. Science that promotes and preserves foolish ideologies is not. Especially the parts that say God has been proven wrong or non existent by science x. Now that's just dumb.

Megrim

2005-11-30, 04:59

quote:

Anti-science - Science that promotes and preserves life is greatly accepted. Science that promotes and preserves foolish ideologies is not. Especially the parts that say God has been proven wrong or non existent by science x. Now that's just dumb.

What the fuck? So you're saying the science that doesn't disagree with the church is ok, and fuck everything else?

No, no, no...

Foolish ideologies????!!!! DO NOT GET ME STARTED.....

Before I comment, exactly WHAT ideology are you referring to? Then I'll tell you what ideologies are dumb and foolish.

-big_Z-

2005-11-30, 05:45

Alright here are my thoughts on christianity. I've been brought up into a pentacostal church my entire life and alot of my family are christians. The one thing i've learned from christianity more than anything is that in the end above

everything-the ideals, the ethics, the rules-our purpose is the existence of god.

God's intentionally created us to devote our lives to him and to leave almost everything to him. Our purpose is to give him all the glory to him and to constantly have him in mind. I always hear the old "oh hes just parent guiding his children blah blah blah". But all he's guiding his children to is himself. I get it God, you exist, now what? (his answer: ) now you indulge in recognising me even more, now every progression you make will be in me, your existence is for my existence.

Every "guideline" simply guides us closer to his existence, hes not harming us or anything but it just seems very pointless creating something entirely (literally entirely) for his existence.

[This message has been edited by -big_Z- (edited 11-30-2005).]

Fundokiller

2005-11-30, 07:04

quote:Originally posted by Sig_Intel:

crusades - fought Muslim invasion of Europe and pushed them back to their sand boxes. Otherwise you would be bowing down to Allah 5 times a day on your rug right now or getting your head lopped off. Your choice. (Christianity is as religiously intolerant as Islam)

Inquisition - Catholic purge of "non believers" despite those who followed Jesus outside of the Catholic folds. This was a failure of man not of doctrine. ("No true scotsman" fallacy)

Witch hunts - Many witches don't know what dark powers they court. I've spoken to one who said they ask out to the air for their spell to be granted. I asked her who she was asking and she said she didn't know. She then stopped talking to me. (Who does harry potter ask to have his spell granted Sig?)

Religious wars - no such word as Jihad in Christianity - what war was fought in the name of Jesus? Just curious if you can name one. (THE FUCKING CRUSADES)

Genecide- The church doors are open to anyone and everyone who decides to enter them. This is what is taught. There is no history of Christians trying to destroy an entire race of people. What are you referencing?

Anti-science - Science that promotes and preserves life is greatly accepted. Science that promotes and preserves foolish ideologies is not. Especially the parts that say God has been proven wrong or non existent by science x. Now that's just dumb. ( PI IS NOT EXACTLY 3, snails do not melt, The earth does not have corners etc. Such wrong ideologies sig)

Twiggy

2005-11-30, 14:29

quote:Originally posted by Beholder:

Helping people?

Selflessness?

Drives for less fortunate families so they don't starve to death and helping out a child who otherwise wouldn't have a toy on christmas gets one?

- Telling people in AIDS ridden countries where they cannot afford to support themselves and their families that having sex with condoms is wrong.

- Discriminating against people because of their gender or sexual preferences.

-Preaching that we are all equal in the eyes of god whilst they commit said discrimination.

- The condoning of child molestation.

- Preaching that God loves everyone yet telling people that they will burn in eternal hell fire and torment unless they listen to God.

Yes this is mainly against the Catholic church.

chaski86

2005-11-30, 16:39

...

Beholder

2005-11-30, 22:43

quote:- Telling people in AIDS ridden countries where they cannot afford to support themselves and their families that having sex with condoms is wrong.

Catholic belief, notwithstanding an outdated catholic belief.

quote:

- Discriminating against people because of their gender or sexual preferences.

When did Catholicism ever discriminate against people due to gender? Not mentioning the christian church dosen't discriminate homosexuals. We're actually starting an outreach program and etc.

quote:

-Preaching that we are all equal in the eyes of god whilst they commit said discrimination.

Where's this discrimination I keep hearing about?!? And remember, an act of a person in the church is in an act on behalf of the church.

quote:- The condoning of child molestation.

- Preaching that God loves everyone yet telling people that they will burn in eternal hell fire and torment unless they listen to God.

Low blow, the catholic church did not CONDONE child molestation! You keep blaming bad instances by clergy/church members on the entire church! That's like me saying all books are bad because one or two promote something bad. Not to be arrogant, but the logic you're using to conclude such matters is obviously flawed.

quote:Yes this is mainly against the Catholic church.

Well quite honestly, I know a great deal of pastors who cannot stand the catholic church. This is about Christianity. I'm guessing you were brought up catholic, so I think I can see why you'd be so angry. Why not try looking at the more biblical churches such as the Lutheran or Baptist? They're much less "traditional."

ArmsMerchant

2005-11-30, 22:55

Christianity is a religion of fear and denial.

That, however, is more fact than opinion.

ChaosWyrm

2005-12-01, 08:33

quote:Originally posted by Sig_Intel:

crusades - fought Muslim invasion of Europe and pushed them back to their sand boxes. Otherwise you would be bowing down to Allah 5 times a day on your rug right now or getting your head lopped off. Your choice.

Back that claim up with historical proof not written by the Catholic Church, I dare you.

quote:Inquisition - Catholic purge of "non believers" despite those who followed Jesus outside of the Catholic folds. This was a failure of man not of doctrine.

You are aware that the Inquisition was sanctioned by the Church and the "infallible" pope, right? In fact, it was also used to reign in the attack dogs of the church after the Crusades were over...an excuse to excommunicate and execute the very people who were practically saints during the Crusades (the Knights Templar, for example) based on their "heresies" which they practiced at the BEHEST of the "infallible" pope at the time...

quote:Witch hunts - Many witches don't know what dark powers they court. I've spoken to one who said they ask out to the air for their spell to be granted. I asked her who she was asking and she said she didn't know. She then stopped talking to me.

Oh please...do you even KNOW the history of the witch hunts in Europe and the Americas? There is a reason that the term "witch hunt" has become common parlance for a hyped-up mockery of justice designed simply to discredit and eliminate political and economic rivals...

I don't care what you think about witches, you know squat about the "Witch Hunts" if you can make a statement like you made above to justify them.

quote:Religious wars - no such word as Jihad in Christianity - what war was fought in the name of Jesus? Just curious if you can name one. Try the word "Crusade" or the word "Mission" or the word "Inquisition" or the words "Witch Hunt" or maybe even the words "Converting the Heathens"...

Oddly enough, your rose colored glasses are actually blinders of ignorance to the truth of the atrocities committed in the name of your precious religion...

Not that religion is the only thing that has been used for justification of atrocities, but it is not unsoiled, so sell your propaganda elsewhere, we know better.

quote:Anti-science - Science that promotes and preserves life is greatly accepted. Science that promotes and preserves foolish ideologies is not. Especially the parts that say God has been proven wrong or non existent by science x. Now that's just dumb.

So Stem-cell research is now condoned by the church? interesting...

Open your eyes.

Twiggy

2005-12-01, 09:57

quote:Originally posted by Beholder:

I'm guessing you were brought up catholic, so I think I can see why you'd be so angry. Why not try looking at the more biblical churches such as the Lutheran or Baptist? They're much less "traditional."

Methodist actually! (not the most lively of the sects)

The church has discriminated on gender by not allowing ordination of women priests. In fact, doesn't the bible teach in general that women are lesser mortals than men, due to the idea of original sin?

Furthermore, of course the church discriminates against homosexuals - the ongoing battle to have homosexual bishops should be an easy marker for this! Also the church's reaction to making gay marriage legal?

And no offence, but surely the fact that your church is "starting an outreach" show that until now homosexuals HAVE been discriminated against. Or they feel they have been discriminated against, otherwise such an outreach would not be necessary!

Beholder - Yes my opinions have been called childish, "red" and many other things. However, I don't see the problem with living a good life outside of a major religion, especially ones that I believe to be corrupt. Tell me as a christian, IS THIS WRONG?

[This message has been edited by Twiggy (edited 12-01-2005).]